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Topic: OT - Weird History

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1218 on: November 02, 2022, 08:15:38 AM »
11/02/1948

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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1219 on: November 02, 2022, 08:39:19 AM »
fake news
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1220 on: November 02, 2022, 09:00:29 AM »
California gold panners circa 1860:


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1221 on: November 02, 2022, 09:07:20 AM »
About an hour north of me is a small town called Dahlonega which was the site of the first gold rush in the US.  A US Mint was established there.  The town was basically drying up when they capitalized on the gold heritage and revived the downtown square, which has the usual antique shops, restaurants, etc.  The old courthouse is now the gold museum and pretty interesting.  The GA Capitol dome if coated with 43 ounces of gold from north GA.

How the dome got its gold – SaportaReport



medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1222 on: November 02, 2022, 10:52:04 AM »
John Thach.
He also devised what was called "The Big Blue Blanket" toward the end of the war.

This was a response to the threat posed by the Kamikaze attacks.

Thatch's Big Blue Blanket got it's name from the blue painted Hellcats and Corsairs that were responsible for defending the fleet.

Thatch's plan involved positioning Destroyers (DD's) and Destroyer Escorts (DE's) up to 50 miles or more out from the Carriers (CV's). These late-war, radar-equipped DD's and DE's would then report contacts back to Fighter Direction officers who vectored Hellcats and Corsairs out to destroy enemy planes before they got anywhere near the high-value Carriers, Battleships, and Cruisers.

Thatch's design also substantially increased the number of fighters used for Combat Air Patrol (CAP) and specified that when approaching land targets, US fighters were to be stationed over known airfields to prevent enemy planes from even getting airborne.

This did put the DD's and DE's at considerable risk of course but they were protected to the extent possible by the CAP. Also, they were smaller, faster, and more maneuverable than large capital ships so they were harder for enemies to hit. Finally, even if they were hit, from the perspective of the USN it was obviously preferable to have a cheap, easily replaced, and small-crew DD or DE sunk or damaged than to lose use of a Carrier.

Late in the war, to get to an American Carrier a Kamikaze had to get past:
  • CAP starting as much as 50-60 miles away from the Carriers. Even at 300 MPH it takes 10-12 minutes to cover that distance. The Corsairs and Hellcats were armed with six .50 cal Browning M2 machine guns (450 rounds/min) and two 20 MM Cannons so the Kamikazes had to evade a massive amount of fire just to get close.
  • Closer to the Carriers the Kamikaze would encounter an inner ring of DD's and Cruisers firing proximity-fused 5" AA rounds.
  • Very close they would typically encounter Battleships which in that case were basically giant nearly unsinkable AA gun platforms. The Iowa Class ships, for example, had 20 5" AA guns, 80 40 MM guns, and 49 20 MM guns.
  • On final approach to an American Carrier the Kamikaze would be raked by the Carrier's own defensive AA armament. The Essex Class ships, for example, had 12 5" AA guns, up to 72 40 MM AA guns, and up to 76 20 MM AA guns.

The Kamikazes were undoubtedly horrifying but the vast majority were shot down miles away from the core of the US fleet before even seeing let alone hitting any large American ships.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1223 on: November 02, 2022, 10:55:27 AM »
Yup, the Small Boys paid a heavy price because the poorly trained Japanese pilots would think they were capital ships and attack them, and of course they were lightly armored at best.  A DE (Destroyer Escort) or Corvette in Brit parlance was an underpowered smaller destroyer mostly intended for escort duty of convoys.

That 5" 38 caliber dual purpose mount was a very useful thing.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1224 on: November 02, 2022, 11:10:58 AM »
Yup, the Small Boys paid a heavy price because the poorly trained Japanese pilots would think they were capital ships and attack them, and of course they were lightly armored at best.  A DE (Destroyer Escort) or Corvette in Brit parlance was an underpowered smaller destroyer mostly intended for escort duty of convoys.

That 5" 38 caliber dual purpose mount was a very useful thing.
Not too far from you at Patriots Point SC where the USS Yorktown is on display they also have the USS Laffey. Laffey suffered a horrendous battle with attacking Kamikazes off Okinawa and somehow survived. If you haven't been, I highly recommend visiting. 

Tip for visiting Patriots Point / Charleston. My wife and I stayed via AirBnB on a boat docked at Charleston Harbor Resort and Marina. It was actually cheaper than a room in the resort AND we had resort privileges anyway AND the boat we stayed on was only a short walk down the dock from the Yorktown and Laffey. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1225 on: November 02, 2022, 11:16:15 AM »
I've been there a long while back.  I am trying not to drag my wife to too many historical sites these days.  I've overdone it a bit.

We're signed up to visit Petra and Luxor etc. in Feb/Mar. though, she wants to visit Jerusalem but there is as yet not offering.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1226 on: November 02, 2022, 11:19:53 AM »
From wiki on the Kamikaze attack that Laffey survived:

Laffey survived despite being badly damaged by four bombs, six kamikaze crashes, and strafing fire that killed 32 and wounded 71. Assistant communications officer Lieutenant Frank Manson asked Captain Becton if he thought they'd have to abandon ship, to which he snapped, "No! I'll never abandon ship as long as a single gun will fire." Becton did not hear a nearby lookout softly say, "And if I can find one man to fire it."[

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1227 on: November 03, 2022, 12:46:35 PM »
Much of what Westerners know about Field Marshal Mikhail Illarionovich Golenischev-Kutuzov derives from Leo Tolstoy, who depicted the “scarred and puffy” commander-in-chief of the Russian armies during Napoleon’s retreat from Moscow as pensive, overweight and morose. The real Kutuzov, as the eminent Napoleonic Wars scholar Alexander Mikaberidze reveals, was certainly pensive, if only because he was a profound military thinker and strategist; undoubtedly overweight and wheezy by the time he took up overall command aged 65; but far from morose, lavishing his affection on five beloved daughters, and even a 14-year-old mistress.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/the-fat-elderly-one-eyed-general-who-outwitted-napoleon-and-was-immortalised-in-war-and-peace/ar-AA13EtjT?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f59d200bf09a44519d3977d24e6880b5

Kutuzov was Russia’s sixth most senior general when Napoleon crossed the River Niemen into the Russian empire on June 24 1812. An aristocrat who had won a war and signed a peace with the Ottomans, he had been a war hero ever since he had survived being shot in the head, not once but twice (blinding him in one eye). This superb biography portrays Kutuzov as “charming, intelligent, calculating, artful” – but, crucially, not the author of the scorched earth retreat-and-wait strategy that was to rout Napoleon’s 600,000-strong army.

That accolade belonged to Russia’s Scottish- and German-born minister of war General Barclay de Tolly, who recognized that the Russian army of a quarter of a million men was in constant danger of being out-manoeuvred and enveloped by the French Grande Armée, and instead it should refuse battle and withdraw eastwards into the endless territory of Russia, drawing Napoleon further and further into Russia until lines of communication were overextended and winter descended.

This pragmatic but unheroic strategy so offended Russian sensibilities that Tolly finally had to be sacked by Tsar Alexander I and a native Russian, Kutuzov, promoted, despite the Tsar’s dislike of him. “The public wanted his appointment, so I appointed him,” the Tsar told an aide de camp. “As for myself, I wash my hands of it all.”


Although Kutuzov did fight the Battle of Borodino on September 7 1812 – the biggest single-day bloodbath in world history until the Great War – he was unable to prevent the Napoleonic juggernaut reaching Moscow. Thereafter, his cautious strategy, and the Tsar’s resolute refusal to enter into negotiations with Napoleon, ensured that the Russian army could shepherd the French out of Russia once the blizzards descended, attacking hard when opportunities presented themselves. The Grande Armée recrossed the Niemen in December with only 93,000 survivors. Although Kutuzov died in April 1813, he had laid the groundwork for the Russian entry into Paris the following year.

Kutuzov is hero-worshipped by Russians today, who at the millennium voted him the greatest Russian of the 19th century. Mikaberidze, who has worked extensively in the Russian, French and Lithuanian archives for this book, rightly considers him underappreciated in the West, despite Kutuzov’s doing more to break Napoleon even than the Duke of Wellington, Field Marshal Blücher of Prussia or the Austrian commander Karl von Schwarzenberg.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1228 on: November 03, 2022, 05:01:46 PM »
Understanding John Thatch's "Big Blue Blanket":

Even with radar late in the war a Carrier likely wouldn't spot an approaching enemy until that intruder reached say 50mi out from the fleet.  This Kamikaze intending to destroy your carrier is likely travelling at up to 300mph which means it will cover that 50mi in roughly 10 minutes.  A Hellcat or Corsair in the hanger at this point is utterly worthless.  That plane couldn't get fueled, armed, up to the flight deck, warmed up, and off the carrier before the Kamikaze arrived.  

Even if the Hellcat or Corsair was fully armed, fully fueled, and warmed up on the flight deck, it takes 8-10 minutes for a Corsair to climb to 20,000' depending on the load-out.  Since you'd want maximum fuel and ammunition you are probably closer to the 10 minute mark which means you'd get to 20,000 at about the same time the Kamikaze crashed into your ship.  

Ok, so what if the Corsair or Hellcat was already flying 20,000' over the carrier when the intruder was identified?  Well top speed for a Hellcat or Corsair is around 400mph so if it was immediately given the correct compass heading and altitude, it could head toward the intruder at a closing speed of roughly 700mph.  That will get you to the Kamikaze in about four and a half minutes at roughly 25-30 mi from the carrier.  In theory you could shoot the intruder down head-on but this is an INCREDIBLY difficult shot.  The closing speed is 700 mph.  
700*5,280 = 3,696,000 feet per hour
3,696,000/60 = 61,600 feet per minute
61,600/60 = 1,027 feet per second.  

The M2 Browning .50 cal machine guns in the Corsairs and Hellcats have an effective range of about 6,000' so you have roughly six seconds from the time the intruder is in range until you crash into them.  You can't fire for the full six seconds because you have to pull up or else you'll crash into them and you have zero chance of surviving a 700mph collision at 20,000' so you have AT MOST approximately five seconds of firing time.  That would be plenty if you were firing at some stationary target but you aren't, everything is moving.  You and they are moving at a combined 1,027 feet per second and remember that this isn't a ground or sea based target that moves in two dimensions, this is an airborne target that moves in three dimensions as do you.  

Actually hitting an approaching Kamikaze with a head-on shot in this situation would be miraculous.  

Alternatively, you could loop around behind the intruder and approach them from astern but that turn takes time.  You have to slow your aircraft down enough to make the turn and you have to line it up right and then once you get behind them you have to catch up to within no more than 6,000' before you can start firing effectively.  Firing earlier may sound like a good idea but it isn't.  Your .50 cal machine guns fire 450-600 rounds per minute and you only carry 400 rounds per gun so you have less than 60 seconds of firing time.  Firing "prayer" shots from from the 24,000' maximum range of the gun accomplishes nothing but to expend your ammunition while you are too far away such that when you do get close you will not have any left.  

By the time you get turned around and lined up behind the intruder you are probably no more than 20 mi from the Carrier and that is if everything went right.  They are still closing on the Carrier at 300 mph (5 mi/minute) so you have AT MOST four minutes to shoot them down and the last minute or more of that you'll be chasing them into your own ships' AA fire which is just as effective at shooting down Hellcats and Corsairs as it is at shooting down Zeros so you'll be at SUBSTANTIAL risk of getting downed by "friendly fire" if you don't splash the intruder before you get close.  

Realistically you only get one or maybe two passes at the intruder.  You'll be trained to keep your own throttle to the firewall in order to avoid being shot down by any lurking enemy fighters so slowing down to their 300 mph speed to get more shots simply isn't an option.  Your closing speed will be at least 100 mph or about 150' per second so you'll have something like 40 seconds overall but you probably don't want to open fire until you are closer and you have to pull up to avoid crashing into the intruder so this still isn't easy.  Then, if you miss, you have to either dive or climb away, loop around, and try again with very limited ammunition.  

Corsairs and Hellcats are also armed with a couple of 20mm cannons but those have an even higher rate of fire and less ammunition than the .50cal guns so they generally aren't engaged until you are pretty sure you are on target.  

Placing DD's and DE's 50 miles from the Carriers and protective Combat Air Patrol (CAP) fighters at long range as well moved all these calculations an extra 50 miles away from the Carriers which gave the fighters more time to get their shots lined up which saved a lot of lives on the carriers but as @Cincydawg pointed out, the DD's and DE's sometimes paid a VERY high price for that.  

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1229 on: November 03, 2022, 09:05:54 PM »
Did you do all of that finding/figuring? If so impressive
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1230 on: November 04, 2022, 09:30:54 AM »
November 4, 1980.

Ronald Reagan elected POTUS.
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1231 on: November 04, 2022, 09:32:38 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

The Sack of Antwerp (1576)
In the mid-16th century, Antwerp, Belgium, was Europe's chief commercial and financial center. Actively involved in trade with Spain, Portugal, the Americas, and the East, Antwerp's ports received spices, gold, and other luxury goods. The city was also home to a flourishing diamond industry. However, Antwerp's fortunes changed in 1576 when Spanish troops sacked the city and killed about 6,000 of its inhabitants in what became known as the "Spanish fury."
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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