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Topic: OT - Weird History

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1106 on: October 04, 2022, 02:12:57 AM »
I figure in 1918 they could win if the US didn't get into it. 
You were there, tell us some stories about it.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1107 on: October 04, 2022, 06:46:45 AM »
So, after the German victory in 1871, they took some land in eastern France (Alsace in particular) that was, and is today, quite Teutonic.  Germany lost this after WW I of course.  I figure they would have paraded through Paris (again) and taken a few more slices of land and perhaps demanded some payment had they won in 1914.

Belgium was/is a British creation, a buffer state between Holland and France and Germany, and had been guaranteed by GB.  When German executed the Schlieffen plan with a wheel through Belgium, Britain entered the war.  As usual, they had relatively few ground troops to commit.  The German plan was to hit France from the less defended north instead of direct (through more challenging terrain and fortfications) and sweep west of Paris and hit behind the main French lines.  As noted, they weakened their forces because of the Russian attack in Prussia (which failed before the reinforcements got there) and went east of Paris where they were attacked by the Parisian garrison (partly aided by taxis).

The French prepared in 1940 for a repeat of the Schlieffen plan, and Manstein suggested an alternative which was adopted and bizarrely successful.

Anyway, the future could well have been much better had the Germans won WW One.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1108 on: October 04, 2022, 07:31:16 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Boris Yeltsin Orders Tanks to Storm Russian Parliament (1993)
As president of an independent Russia, Boris Yeltsin sought to end state control of the economy but clashed with parliament, which was controlled by former Communists. When Yeltsin suspended the parliament, it retaliated by naming Vice President Aleksandr Rutskoi as acting president, and anti-Yeltsin forces barricaded themselves inside the parliament building. The military interceded on Yeltsin's side and, after a bloody battle, troops recaptured the parliament building.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1109 on: October 04, 2022, 11:01:51 AM »
As noted, they weakened their forces because of the Russian attack in Prussia (which failed before the reinforcements got there)
This has always struck me as a somewhat amusing historical oddity.

For those who don't know what @Cincydawg and I are talking about, here is a somewhat oversimplified brief explanation:

In 1870 Bismark goaded Napoleon's nephew who was then in control of France into declaring war against Prussia. You have to realize that this was only about 50 years after his Uncle had terrorized and invaded nearly all of Europe including briefly holding Moscow and at one point having a navy (including allies) large enough to credibly threaten to invade Britain.

Most neutral observers thought that France would crush the upstart Prussians. Britain, had been Napoleonic France's arch-nemesis and Prussia was an ally of Britain in the Napolonic wars including providing most of the ground troops at Waterloo. Additionally Britain and France had been enemies/rivals for centuries and the French were Catholic whereas the Prussians were mostly Protestant like the British.

My point is that Britain's natural sympathies were with the Prussians. Nonetheless, British newspapers were printing probable French invasion routes into Prussia in the belief, as I noted above, that the French would win. Instead the Kaiser's troops enveloped and annihalated the French Army at Sedan. Prussia unified most of the German people, the German Empire was declared and the Prussian Kaiser was crowned at Versailles.

The brand new German Empire immediately was the most powerful country on the Continent and over the next 45 years the other European powers set up a series of alliances in an attempt to provide for their defense and also to maintain a balance of power.

Schliefen was a German General who came up with Germany's plan for what was probably an inevitable war with France and Russia. Schliefen himself died before WWI but his plan was still in place when Archduke Ferdinand was assisinated in Sarajevo which ultimately set off WWI.

Schliefen assumed that it would take the Russians many months to fully mobilize and organize so his plan was to defend East Prussia with basically a token force while the vast majority of the German Army swept through Belgium to crush France and knock them out of the war quickly enough that the troops could be freed up to take on the Russians.

Schliefen's plan also specifically called for the last man on the right to "brush the channel with his sleeve". This served two purposes:
  • It would keep the entire French Army inside the giant German net intended to close around them, and
  • It would make it difficult for the British to intervene by capturing the French Channel Ports at which British troops would otherwise disembark.
Schliefen is said to have died muttering "Only make the right wing strong!" He fundamentally understood that technology had reached a point that massively favored the defensive so he knew that Germany could defend their Eastern frontier and their border with France with very small forces but they would need overwhelming numerical superiority for their offensive on the right.

Incidentally, the French war plan was almost a mirror image of the German plan as they also intended an advance by their right wing. Consequently, when war broke out the French and Germans were each attacking on their right and defending on their left such that when viewed on an overall map it looks like they are trying to go counter-clockwise through an enormous revolving door centered on Luxembourg.

Anyway, the French attack in the South (the French right wing) was a massive failure with the Germans easily stopping them. Meanwhile, the German advance through Belgium and into Northern France was quite successful although it added two new nations to the growing list of Germany's enemies and ultimately did them in some years later.

While all of this was transpiring in the West, the Russians managed to launch an invasion of East Prussia. As it turned out this invasion was disorganized, poorly supplied, poorly led, and generally a disaster for the Russians. However, it served a valuable purpose, it spooked the Germans. Moltke (German overall commander) pulled troops out of the right wing to reinforce East Prussia. The troops pulled from the right wing were in the process of moving East when Ludendorf and Hindenburg obliterated the Russians in East Prussia. At that point Moltke ordered them back to the Western front and they were in the process of moving West when the French stopped the German advance on the Marne.

Thus, the troops did no good for the Germans at all. Had they simply been left in the right wing there is a good chance that the French counter-attack would have been overwhelmed, France would have fallen, and Germany would have won WWI.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1110 on: October 04, 2022, 11:10:11 AM »
The First Battle of Bull Run was kind of similar on a far far smaller scale.  The Confederates and the Union forces both attacked on their right flanks.  Neither made much progress, but the arrival of fresh rebels from the Shenandoah turned the tables on the Union right which disintegrated.

I figure had Germany won WW One, they'd have taken some French land, probably not much, maybe neutralized Belgium,  maybe absorbed Luxembourg, and sat back with the Kaiser firmly in control and looking east.  Hitler would never have happened.  Germany might well then have really knocked Russia back and taken land from them.  The Austro-hungarian "empire" would have tottered along a while longer, the Ottoman empire would have lasted longer.

Kaiser Wilhem II and the King of Great Britain were first cousins, as was Tsar Alexander.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1111 on: October 05, 2022, 08:11:12 AM »

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1112 on: October 05, 2022, 09:41:52 AM »


Pont du Gard aqueduct in France.  It really is astonishing what was built back in the day, and still stands.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1113 on: October 05, 2022, 09:43:06 AM »
Pont du Gard, (French: “Bridge of the Gard”) giant bridge-aqueduct, a notable ancient Roman engineering work constructed about 19 BCE to carry water to the city of Nîmes over the Gard River in southern FranceAugustus Caesar’s son-in-law and aide, Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, is credited with its conception. It is listed as a UNESCO World Heritage site.

Three tiers of arches rise to a height of 47 metres (155 feet). The first tier is composed of 6 arches, from 15 to 24 metres (51 to 80 feet) wide, the largest spanning the river; the second tier is composed of 11 arches of the same dimensions; and the third, carrying the conduit, is composed of 35 smaller (4.6-metre [15-foot]) arches. Like many of the best Roman constructions, it was built without mortar. The structure was severely damaged in the 5th century but was restored in 1743.



medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1114 on: October 05, 2022, 11:44:43 AM »
[img width=273.429 height=500]https://i.imgur.com/rJnhxhM.png[/img]
Does John Ratzenberger appear in this picture as Cliff Claven (his Cheers character and drinking buddy of Norm Peterson whom he us next to), or as Rebel Force Major Derlin (his Star Wars character from Episode V)?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1115 on: October 05, 2022, 11:50:53 AM »
[img width=273.429 height=337]https://i.imgur.com/Gb9hNXh.png[/img]

Pont du Gard aqueduct in France.  It really is astonishing what was built back in the day, and still stands.
It has been more than 30 years since I last visited Europe but this was amazing to me even at a young age. Here in the US anything over 400 years old is incredibly rare and in my area of Ohio the cities and townships are celebrating bicentennials having been established around 1800-1830 or so.

In Europe those things are viewed as new. I remember a beer coaster I collected in Bavaria that had "Family Owned since 1485" printed on it. It occurred to me that Christopher Columbus or his crew may have had some of that beer 🍺 before they left on their famous voyage.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1116 on: October 05, 2022, 12:21:32 PM »
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1117 on: October 05, 2022, 02:01:49 PM »
A photograph took after the war at "Bloody Angle" Spotsylvania Court House. 

The sign reads: "On Fame's eternal camping ground, Their silent tents are spread, And Glory guards, with solemn round, The Bivouac of the dead."

Sergeant Cyrus R. Watson of Company K, Forty-fifth North Carolina wrote of the Angle after the battle:
"It was a bright May day. There was no fighting on any part of the line, and by permission I went. The pickets permitted me to pass, and I went over the breastworks to that portion of the field which had been occupied by Ramseur's Brigade. On my arrival in this angle, I could well see why the enemy had withdrawn their lines. The stench was almost unbearable. There was dead artillery horses in considerable numbers that had been killed on the 10th and in the early morning of the 12th.
Along these lines of breastworks where the earth had been excavated to the depth of one or two feet and thrown over, making the breastworks, I found these trenches filled with water (for there had been much rain) and in this water lay the dead bodies of friend and foe commingled, in many instances one laying across the other, and in one or more instances I saw as many as three lying across one another. All over the field lay the dead of both armies by hundreds, many of them mangled by shells. Many of the bodies swollen out of all proportion, some with their guns yet grasped in their hands. Now and then one could be seen covered with a blanket, which had been placed over him by a comrade after he had fallen.
These bodies were decaying. The water was red, almost black with blood. Offensive flies were everywhere. The trees, saplings and shrubs were torn and shattered beyond description; guns, some of them broken, bayonets, canteens and cartridge boxes were scattered about, and the whole scene was such that no pen can, or ever will describe it. I have seen many fields after severe conflicts, but nowhere have I seen anything half so ghastly.
I returned to my company and said to old man Thomas Carroll, a private in the company, who was frying meat at a fire, You would have saved rations by going with me, for I will have no more appetite for a week."



Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1118 on: October 06, 2022, 08:46:35 AM »


FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1119 on: October 06, 2022, 09:11:17 AM »
The first Hollywood stunt man was ex-U.S. cavalryman Frank Hanaway who was cast in The Great Train Robbery (1903) for his ability to fall off a horse without hurting himself.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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