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Topic: OT - Weird History

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utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1022 on: September 01, 2022, 08:48:36 AM »
I don't think the $35M will be enough, but it's all the state legislature is willing to give, and after that, they're no longer funding it.  There are some wealthy benefactors lined up potentially, to cover remaining costs, but for the long term it's going to have to become self-sustaining as a tourist site.  They still don't have a final destination picked out.  There's a lot of risk remaining.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1023 on: September 01, 2022, 08:50:20 AM »
The number of battles in WW 2 between battleships is suprisingly small.

utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1024 on: September 01, 2022, 09:11:19 AM »
The number of battles in WW 2 between battleships is suprisingly small.
Yeah seems like they were more often used for standoff bombardment of onshore targets.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1025 on: September 01, 2022, 09:36:28 AM »
Way more often, and as antiaircraft platforms.  They were studded with dual purpose 5 inch batteries, and other 40 and 20 mm.

Radar proximity shells greatly enhanced their capabilities.

utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1026 on: September 01, 2022, 10:00:53 AM »
Way more often, and as antiaircraft platforms.  They were studded with dual purpose 5 inch batteries, and other 40 and 20 mm.

Radar proximity shells greatly enhanced their capabilities.

Somewhere I saw a tactical sheet for the specs and armament of the USS Texas for WW1, and WW2.  In WW1 it had a lot of smaller secondary armament, but for WW2 they'd removed a lot of that and replaced it with AA weaponry.  It was interesting to see how the times changed, and the battleship's armament had to change with them.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1027 on: September 01, 2022, 10:49:08 AM »
Somewhere I saw a tactical sheet for the specs and armament of the USS Texas for WW1, and WW2.  In WW1 it had a lot of smaller secondary armament, but for WW2 they'd removed a lot of that and replaced it with AA weaponry.  It was interesting to see how the times changed, and the battleship's armament had to change with them.
The American DP 5" was a great weapon. Some navies had separate guns for AA and for floating/land based targets. The 5" gun was "Dual Purpose" which effectively meant that American ships had a lot more of either AA or secondary armament than ships equipped with both an AA gun and a separate secondary armament. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1028 on: September 01, 2022, 11:04:14 AM »
Radar proximity shells greatly enhanced their capabilities.
This is easily the most under-appreciated technological advance of WWII. I don't have the figures off the top of my head but the Navy calculated the # of shells fired per aircraft downed and the introduction of the VT Fuse* caused this # to drop by something like 90%.

*VT Fuse was the American code name for the Radar Proximity Fuse. VT stood for "variable time" but that was intentionally misleading. They weren't timed at all other than that they armed a split second after leaving the barrel such that they wouldn't explode before clearing the firing area. After that they worked via a miniaturized radar to explode when close to a target.

The VT Fuse was also used against Infantry formations on land. The most effective way to take those out is to have your shell explode just above the ground such that shrapnel scatters and creates the maximum "kill zone". If your shell explodes too high the shrapnel is too scattered and the blast too diluted. Too low and the ground absorbs most of the shrapnel and blast thus reducing kills.

Prior to the proximity fuse both of these situations were usually handled using fuses that worked based on elevation. When shooting at an aircraft the gunners would guess the plane's elevation then also guess whether it was climbing, decending, or level, then guesstimate the elevation at which the shell would meet the plane and hope for the best.

Against targets on land the gunners guessed (or sometimes knew) the elevation then set to altimeter to explode the shell just above that.

The proximity fuse eliminated all that guesswork and was vastly more precise.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1029 on: September 01, 2022, 11:14:34 AM »
Back in the day, a British officer named "Shrapnel" invented a shell designed to explode in the air and rain "shrapnell" down on the enemy.  But you had to cut the fuze to the correct length for it to work properly.  This was used a lot in the UC Uncivil War.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1030 on: September 01, 2022, 11:16:03 AM »
The American DP 5" was a great weapon. Some navies had separate guns for AA and for floating/land based targets. The 5" gun was "Dual Purpose" which effectively meant that American ships had a lot more of either AA or secondary armament than ships equipped with both an AA gun and a separate secondary armament.
In theory separate guns had the advantage of being specifically designed for their exact role and in a situation where you needed to engage both ships and aircraft simultaneously separate guns would be superior.

In practice ships rarely had to engage ships and aircraft simultaneously and the single biggest factor against either was simply how much weight of shell you could put up. The advantage of the DP guns was that you could fire everything against anything.

Another advantage of the American 5" gun was that it was about the limit of what Sailors could manually load. The Japanese used a 6" gun but the larger shell size and weight were more than made up for by the slower cyclic rate because Sailors couldn't manhandle the shells.

By mid-war an American flotilla could put up a terrifying amount of AA. It was so effective that the Japanese decision to switch to Kamakize tactics was a fairly rational decision. As a practical matter at that point, bombing an American ship WAS a suicide mission regardless of whether or not it was presented that way. The Japanese actually got more hits per airmen lost using kamakizes than they did using pilots who were supposed to return.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1031 on: September 01, 2022, 11:25:51 AM »
The 5" 38 caliber DP gun was also effectively against lesser armored ships, and was used with some effect at the "Battle of the Tin Can Sailors".  At one point they got under the ability of the Japanese main guns to depress and fired at the battleship/cruiser bridge areas.

Caliber has a different meaning for naval and tank guns.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1032 on: September 01, 2022, 11:27:34 AM »
I don't think the $35M will be enough, but it's all the state legislature is willing to give, and after that, they're no longer funding it.  There are some wealthy benefactors lined up potentially, to cover remaining costs, but for the long term it's going to have to become self-sustaining as a tourist site.  They still don't have a final destination picked out.  There's a lot of risk remaining.
where's my ROI?


fortunately the government need not worry about such trivial matters
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 11:39:08 AM by FearlessF »
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1033 on: September 01, 2022, 11:32:47 AM »
In theory, there could be some ROI from such things in terms of promoting tourism.

It will depend on where it ends up of course.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1034 on: September 01, 2022, 11:35:49 AM »
there certainly could be.  I'd like to see it calculated and published

for all Government spending
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1035 on: September 01, 2022, 11:38:38 AM »
Way more often, and as antiaircraft platforms.  They were studded with dual purpose 5 inch batteries, and other 40 and 20 mm.
While I love the big BB's and I'm one of the few who appreciate the oddity that is the Alaska Class, their main disadvantage was that their cost didn't justify their construction relative to simply building more cruisers as AA platforms.  I just made this chart from WIKI:


Weight is a pretty good rough proxy for cost.  The ships are the Iowa Class Battleships, the Alaska Class Large Cruisers (arguably Battlecruisers but not according to the USN), Baltimore Class Heavy Cruisers, and Cleveland Class Light Cruisers.  The main armament is a different issue entirely but that wasn't used against aerial targets anyway*.  Simply for AA purposes, the above is what each ship carried during WWII.  

Note also that the range is longest/highest for the larger guns and shortest for the smaller guns so the most effective guns are the 5" while the 40MM and especially the 20MM are less effective particularly at defending another ship.  These, especially the 20MM are mostly close-in weapons for use against targets that got past the 5" and have probably already dropped their ordinance so the damage is already done.  

So for roughly the same cost you could build two Iowa's, three Alaska's, seven Baltimore's, or eight Cleveland's and here is the number of each weapon you'd get by doing that:

Strictly as AA platforms, the Iowa's and Alaska's are insanely inefficient choices.  The more numerous ships also have the advantage of being able to spread out their fire since there are more of them so they can be sent in different directions and while a hit on one of them will be more damaging it will only be damaging to THAT ship, the other seven Cleveland's or six Baltimore's will remain undamaged from a single hit.  

 

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