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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #742 on: June 17, 2022, 12:27:33 PM »
Maybe so, it's possible, though of course the Germans made another pitch to win in 1942 that had a chance.

Case Blue.  One of the interesting German offenses in WW 2.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #743 on: June 17, 2022, 03:26:35 PM »
Maybe so, it's possible, though of course the Germans made another pitch to win in 1942 that had a chance.

Case Blue.  One of the interesting German offenses in WW 2.
Eh, yes and no.  I think that Case Blue was a relative longshot with only a remote chance of actually winning the war for the Nazi's.  They had a not altogether impossible chance of cutting off Soviet access to the Caucasian Oil but their chances of actually acquiring the oilfields, a transportation network to refineries, refineries, and a transportation network to where the oil was needed were remote at best.  Even if they had cut off Soviet access to Caucasian oil, the Soviets still had other oil and the US could have increased shipments as well so the Soviet War Machine wouldn't have suddenly stopped in its tracks completely (this is not to say that it wouldn't have been a problem for the Soviets and their allies).  

IMHO, the only significant chance the Nazi's had to get a different result out of the war would have been to knock the Soviets out as the Kaiser had done in his war a quarter-century earlier.  That, combined with having already occupied France and having Italy as an ally rather than an enemy would have presented the US and UK with an incredibly difficult proposition of trying to assault "Fortress Europe".  

I know you know but most Americans don't realize that as important as the D-Day landings were, at the time 80% of the German Army was fighting the Soviets on the Eastern Front.  There is simply no way that the US and UK would have been ready to make such a landing against an undistracted Germany for at least another year or two.  Thus, had the Germans managed to knock the Soviets out, the war would have either been ended in some sort of Nazi/UK/US compromise or decided after the development of Atomic Weapons in 1945.  

Knocking the Soviets Out:
Stalin is widely reputed to have gone into a virtual coma in the early weeks after the Nazi invasion.  The bad news for the Soviets came swiftly and just didn't stop for months.  The German advance from the frontier to the gates of Leningrad and Moscow is just astounding.  I once read that when FDR's personal envoy to Stalin was travelling from Britain to Archangel aboard a British warship in late 1941 he wrote in his diary that "the English are consistent, since I've been with them they have been saying that the Soviets will hold out for another two weeks."  It really was that touch-and-go for a while.  

Plenty of historians will tell you that there is "plenty of land behind Moscow" and that the Soviets could have lost Moscow and stayed in the war but I'm not so sure.  Moscow wasn't just a city or even the biggest city in the Soviet Union, it was also the largest manufacturing center, the transport hub, and the center of command and control.  Finally, there is a psychological impact to losing your capital.  In theory the Soviets could have just retreated some more and kept fighting but as a practical matter I'm not sure that they would have.  

The Germans got incredibly close to capturing Moscow.  One of the history books I have at home has a picture of a wrecked German tank with the spires of the Kremlin visible in the background.  That is CLOSE.  Maybe if they had focused on a single goal rather than changing priorities at Hitler's whim or if they hadn't had to spend the spring bailing out Mussolini's invasion of Greece they might have gotten there.  If that had been enough to knock the Soviets out of the war then who knows if Churchill's government in the UK would even have survived.  Remember that the US was still officially neutral (although providing billions of dollars worth of military and other supplies and fighting an undeclared naval war in the Atlantic against the U-boats).  A Germany that had possession of all of France and what they wanted of Russia would have been far too much for the UK to face alone.  

It is impossible to say what the ultimate impact of Germany knocking the Soviets out of the war would have been.  It might have been decisive in their favor or it might simply have led to millions of additional German Civilian casualties as their cities were vaporized by Anglo-American Atomic weapons.  That said, I think the Germans had a decent chance of accomplishing the goal of knocking out the Soviets in 1941 but not so in 1942 and beyond.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #744 on: June 17, 2022, 04:27:08 PM »
Guderian, who was very self serving, claimed as much in his book.  Others of course were more cautious about what a concerted drive on Moscow would have achieved.  The drive south on Kiev did bag a lot of Russians, but it also delayed Guderian for around a month.  On the other hand, his tanks were wearing out.  Tanks have tracks and engines and even main gun barrels that need servicing or replacing.  

I've played a neat computer game, which doesn't mean much of course, and I can usually take Moscow.  The better course I learned was to take Leningrad, link up with the Finns, let them play defense, and come down on Moscow from the NW.  That is with me playing both sides.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #745 on: June 17, 2022, 04:48:39 PM »
Guderian, who was very self serving, claimed as much in his book.  Others of course were more cautious about what a concerted drive on Moscow would have achieved.  The drive south on Kiev did bag a lot of Russians, but it also delayed Guderian for around a month.  On the other hand, his tanks were wearing out.  Tanks have tracks and engines and even main gun barrels that need servicing or replacing. 

I've played a neat computer game, which doesn't mean much of course, and I can usually take Moscow.  The better course I learned was to take Leningrad, link up with the Finns, let them play defense, and come down on Moscow from the NW.  That is with me playing both sides.
Guderian, as you pointed out, is infamously self-serving in his book.  So many of the German high-command died either in the war, by suicide, or in the immediate postwar trials that a lot of the survivors found it convenient to blame every shortcoming on somebody who wasn't around to defend themselves.  

The logistical issues that you brought up were obviously a MAJOR problem for the Germans and only got worse the deeper they got into Soviet territory.  Someone once said that amateurs study tactics while experts study logistics and there is a lot of truth to that.  Tank tactics are irrelevant if you don't have fuel and ammunition for said tanks and equally irrelevant if your tanks are sidelined waiting for barrels, tracks, or other spare parts.  If Barbarossa had jumped off a month earlier maybe the Germans would have gotten to the outskirts of Moscow a month earlier and taken it or maybe they would simply have run out of fuel, ammunition, and spare parts a month earlier but in the same spot, who knows.  

The German failure to take Leningrad was obviously a major issue later.  Even though Leningrad was besieged and of little use to the Soviets, it still was an existing Soviet area that the Germans had to maintain a front line against and that takes men, equipment, and supplies that could otherwise have been employed elsewhere (such as Moscow or Stalingrad).  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #746 on: June 17, 2022, 05:41:31 PM »
Interestingly enough, the late start (June 22) was caused in part by Mussolini.  I have read an earlier start would have been held up by weather but I don't know if that is the case.  And yes, a month up front could well have been pivotal.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #747 on: June 17, 2022, 05:44:56 PM »
On This Day in History > June 17, 1775:
Patriots lose the Battle of Bunker Hill

"On this day in history, June 17, 1775, patriots lose the Battle of Bunker Hill, the first major battle of the American Revolution and the bloodiest of the entire war. The Battle of Bunker Hill began when patriots surrounding Boston learned that British commanders were planning to break out and take the hills around the city. The very green and untrained militia was surrounding the city after chasing the British back to Boston after the opening shots of the war at the Battles of Lexington and Concord.
The British were planning to break out of the town on June 18, but a businessman from New Hampshire visiting the city alerted the patriots after overhearing the plan. At this time, the militia was under the command of Massachusetts General Artemas Ward. The Continental Army was only authorized in Philadelphia on the 14th and George Washington appointed its leader on the 15th. The events that unfolded on Bunker Hill and Breed's Hill occurred several weeks before Washington arrived and took over.
On the night of June 16, 1200 soldiers entered the Charlestown Peninsula north of Boston under Colonel William Prescott. Prescott's orders were to build fortifications atop Bunker Hill on the northwest part of the peninsula. Prescott disobeyed the orders and built atop Breed's Hill instead, which was further south and closer to Boston. This defiance of orders was typical of American movements at the time since the militia was made up of units from different counties and cities with no established chain of command.
Across the water in Boston, British General Thomas Gage was informed of the American movements early on the 17th. He began preparing an assault on the peninsula, but the soldiers took their time and didn't begin landing until late in the afternoon. By 3:00 the British began their first assault. American commanders had ordered their soldiers not to fire until the British were within close range in order to assure that every bullet would count since they were very low on ammunition.
The first British assault turned into a massacre as the Americans fired on them as they marched up the hill on Prescott's position. Colonel John Stark repelled another attack on the left flank by British Major General William Howe. Dozens and dozens of British soldiers fell and the survivors were forced to retreat. A second assault had the same results. The British regrouped once again for a third assault, but this time the Americans on Breed's Hill ran out of ammunition. British soldiers crawled over their own dead comrades to get to the top of the hill where hand to hand combat began. The British, who were better equipped with bayonets, finally drove the Americans back across Bunker Hill and across the Charlestown Neck.
The Battle of Bunker Hill was a victory for the British since they took the peninsula, but at an enormous cost, suffering over 1,000 casualties! 226 were killed and over 800 injured. A large chunk of Britain's officer corps in North America was killed or wounded, including the entire field staff of General Howe. The Americans lost 115 killed and 300 wounded, including the President of the Massachusetts Provincial Congress, Dr. Joseph Warren.
News of the battle shocked London to its core. It finally realized that the Americans were not the "rabble" they were thought to be, but a formidable fighting force. The battle also hardened Americans and persuaded many to join the revolutionary cause. The battle was a strategic stalemate, having no real value to either side, but to strengthen their resolve. George Washington would arrive in July and begin the task of forming the militia into an orderly and effective army. They would finally force the British to abandon Boston the following year."
[color=var(--blue-link)]Revolutionary-War-and-Beyond.com
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #748 on: June 17, 2022, 07:08:54 PM »
 if they hadn't had to spend the spring bailing out Mussolini's invasion of Greece they might have gotten there.  
yup
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #749 on: June 17, 2022, 08:29:41 PM »
Had Der Fuhrer left Manstein/Paulus/Model alone the would have at least fought to a draw.Course the 427,000 Studebakers Uncle Sam sent Uncle Joe got their troops/rocket launchers/artillary to the front  along with what 10 million pairs of boots and the 1,300 locomotives
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #750 on: June 18, 2022, 07:55:21 PM »
[color=var(--primary-text)]The Dardanelle Pontoon Bridge connected the town of Dardanelle, Arkansas to Russellville across the Arkansas River from 1891 to the early 1920s.
 "It consisted of a series of 72 boats overlaid with wooden planks. It opened for traffic in 1891, and for the small fee of 5 cents an individual could walk across the span to the other side. The cost for wagons was 25 cents, and when cars came along they were charged 50 cents. When a steamboat needed to pass up or down the river, several of the boats were allowed to swing free providing an opening through which the boat passed. Once the boat passed, the pontoons were pulled back into place and connected, and the bridge was ready again for use. Eventually it was replaced in the 1920s by a traditional bridge." (Times Record)
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #751 on: June 19, 2022, 10:51:12 AM »


I don't know which airport or if this is true of course.

Cincydawg

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longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #753 on: June 19, 2022, 11:01:18 AM »


I don't know which airport or if this is true of course.
Lived here all my life and know for a fact that our main airport Bush International has never moved the baggage claim nor at Hobby our other airport

looks like fake news to me
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #754 on: June 19, 2022, 11:10:43 AM »
How a longer walk to baggage reclaim cut complaints | Health & wellbeing | The Guardian
How a longer walk to baggage reclaim cut complaints | Health & wellbeing | The Guardian

Further study revealed that passengers spent one minute walking to baggage claim, then seven waiting, prompting some bright spark to devise a solution: switch the arrival gate, so the walk took far longer. The result was less time standing around, and much less grumbling.


I don't know how they could switch the arrival gate to any benefit.  This could well be an urban legend.

United upgrade at Bush airport aims to reduce waits for baggage (chron.com)


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #755 on: June 19, 2022, 11:15:55 AM »
We were waiting in the lounge in ATL looking out over the airport and it's pretty amazing to see all the baggage carts going hither and yon and getting separated and directed to the right place.  Most folks who fly into ATL are changing planes, so it's doubly challenging, it would be fun to see how they do it.  I'm amazed they don't  lose more stuff.

Take a look inside the world´s busiest airport´s baggage handling operations - Power Stow

 

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