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Topic: OT - Weird History

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #252 on: February 02, 2022, 01:42:05 PM »
A factor also was range of the German fighters, they didn't have much combat time over England, and if shot down, they either died or were captured.

The Me-110 was not very useful as a fighter.  Fighters had short legs in 1940, for the most part.
The Spit and Hurricanes had the same problem if they went across like 15 minutes fighting time before turning around.A lot of Luftwaffe pilots were supposedly clipped this way heading back
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longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #253 on: February 02, 2022, 01:51:37 PM »
The Spit and Hurricanes had the same problem if they went across like 15 minutes fighting time before turning around.A lot of Luftwaffe pilots were supposedly clipped this way heading back
come on P51D
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utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #254 on: February 02, 2022, 02:09:23 PM »

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #255 on: February 02, 2022, 02:11:17 PM »
The P51D used an Allison licensed version of the same engine used in Spitfires (Merlin).  It had more efficient wings and drop tanks.

The P51 with its original engine was a dog.

I think the Merlin was a 27 L V-12.  That is rather larger than car engines though someone put one in a car on back.

The US often liked radial engines like the Wright Cyclone, the Germans used both.  Pluses and minuses.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #256 on: February 02, 2022, 03:00:38 PM »
A factor also was range of the German fighters, they didn't have much combat time over England, and if shot down, they either died or were captured.
Both of those factors are humongous advantages that accrue naturally to the defender and contributed significantly to the British ultimately winning.  If a Spitfire and a Bf109 were both damaged in a dogfight over London and the pilots had to bail out, the Spitfire pilot was back in the air in a new plane in a few days while the Bf109 pilot spent the rest of the war at a POW camp in the US.  That led to much greater attrition of German than of British pilots.  

To a somewhat lesser but still significant extent the same was true for the planes.  Use the same example as above but replace the planes damaged so badly as to require bailing out with planes that can still land but have limited flight time due to something like a destroyed radiator.  In that case the Bf109 pilot's correct response is to bail out so that he survives and his plan is NOT captured.  Nonetheless both plane and pilot are lost to Germany.  Conversely the Spitfire pilot's correct response is to put the plane down on any large open space such as a pasture or roadway.  Both plane and pilot are back in action in a few days.  

Sometimes people don't think through the implications of the time issue.  If flight time from German airbases in Northern France is an hour (each way) and the fighters have 15 minutes of combat time then that does a LOT prop up British numbers.  Suppose that the Germans are launching a raid that will involve an hour of dogfighting (say from noon to 1pm) over England.  In order to have one plane over that space for the entire hour it takes four planes:
  • Takes off at 11am, arrives over combat area at noon, has to leave for fuel reasons at 12:15
  • Takes off at 11:15am, arrives over combat area at 12:15, subs in for #1, has to leave for fuel reasons at 12:30
  • Takes off at 11:30am, arrives over combat area at 12:30, subs in for #2, has to leave for fuel reasons at 12:45
  • Takes off at 11:45am, arrives over combat area at 12:45, subs in for #3, has to leave for fuel reasons at 1pm.  
Thus, the Germans need four fighters to match each one British fighter in a prolonged dogfight and a 2:1 German superiority in overall numbers results in a 2:1 British superiority in numbers actually in the fight at any one time.  

The Germans could (and did) attempt to get around this problem by concentrating their forces for shorter actions with all hands on deck at once but that requires a level of coordination that is great theoretically but nearly impossible to achieve in practice.  

Also, as mentioned by someone upthread, a lot of German fighters were picked off on their way home when their fuel situation did not allow for radical maneuvering (dogfighting) or any serious attempt to shoot down their attackers.  All they could do was to try to evade their attackers and get home.  


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #257 on: February 02, 2022, 07:23:14 PM »


Polo Grounds and Yankee Stadium, separated by the Harlem River—circa mid-1950s.


MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #258 on: February 02, 2022, 08:20:39 PM »
The P51D used an Allison licensed version of the same engine used in Spitfires (Merlin).  It had more efficient wings and drop tanks.

The P51 with its original engine was a dog.

I think the Merlin was a 27 L V-12.  That is rather larger than car engines though someone put one in a car on back.

The US often liked radial engines like the Wright Cyclone, the Germans used both.  Pluses and minuses.


The original allison was actually faster than the merlin but not above 14,000 for whatever reason. Packard made the Merlin state side and Fords british subsidiary did in England.Packard added the Bendix-Stromberg Pressure Carb that fixed the stalling problem they had.Prolly close to fuel injection like the ME 109 Daimler-Benz
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #259 on: February 02, 2022, 08:46:30 PM »
Superchargers

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #260 on: February 02, 2022, 11:05:27 PM »
The original allison was actually faster than the merlin but not above 14,000 for whatever reason. Packard made the Merlin state side and Fords british subsidiary did in England.Packard added the Bendix-Stromberg Pressure Carb that fixed the stalling problem they had.Prolly close to fuel injection like the ME 109 Daimler-Benz
That "whatever reason" was:
Superchargers
At altitude the air gets thinner so you can use more boost without blowing up your manifold or engine.  The North American Engineers couldn't use the variable speed supercharged version of that Allison V12 because they were all allocated to the twin-engined P38.  The Merlin was a great engine but the Allison wasn't any worse provided you compare the appropriately turbo-supercharged version.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #261 on: February 03, 2022, 07:13:45 AM »
I didn't know that

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #262 on: February 03, 2022, 07:45:41 AM »


French Army's wine stock at Gallipoli 1915.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #263 on: February 03, 2022, 07:57:50 AM »
Superchargers
Think it might have been "Tubo" working off exhaust and not direct drive which would require a little more HP
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #264 on: February 03, 2022, 08:01:16 AM »
Yeah, they generally were turbosuperchargers, I wonder where Allison got them for the Merlin if they were allocated for the P38.

Those were complex engines, My dad's B24 had issues with them frequently.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #265 on: February 03, 2022, 08:43:30 AM »

Richard Cownie

, grew up w/ stacks of Aviation Weekly
Answered 11 months ago
Answered 11 months ago · Author has 1K answers and 869.5K answer views

The Allison engine was a clever, elegant design with relatively few parts, designed by a fairly small company which didn’t have the engineering and manufacturing resources to quickly fix all the design, manufacturing, and quality-control problems.

Technically, it didn’t have a two-stage supercharger which would allow it to give high power at higher altitudes - whereas the Merlin had a number of different variants with highly-optimized superchargers designed by Stanley Hooker, who was head and shoulders above everyone else in the world in that particular field of engineering. The favored US solution was to use a General Electric turbocharger in aircraft designed for high altitude missions - but turbocharger installations were bulky and complex, and managing the interactions of turbocharger, intercooler, and engine across a wide range of altitude and weather conditions was a hard problem that Allison, GE, and aircraft manufacturers didn’t really figure out until too late.

The Merlin was a complex engine, sometimes described as “a watchmaker’s nightmare”. But Rolls-Royce had the expertise and the resources to make it work well enough, and (together with Ford UK and Packard) to produce it with high quality in high volume. Britain more or less went all-in to make the Merlin work, and thank God it *did* work, even as early as mid-1940 when Merlin-engined Hurricanes and Spitfires defeated the Luftwaffe. In the USA, on the the other hand, a larger proportion of engineering resources went into radial engines, and the Allison was underdeveloped.

TL; DR you get what you pay for, and the Allison wasn’t given enough priority and resources to become fully mature and robust across a range of applications.

[Update: a book review here goes into more detail about problems with uneven fuel-air mixture due to the Allison’s manifold design; and Allison’s corporate policy of not spending their own money to make design changes, and avoiding major design changes.



“Whitney does point out that during WWII, Allison had in place a policy of not using its own corporate funds to develop or improve its engines. Allison did make some efforts to improve the V-1710 as the war progressed, but it also had in place a policy of making as few changes as possible to the basic engine; as a result, thorough re-designs to correct persistent problems were never done and so later upgraded versions of the V-1710 were unable to reach the same level of reliability and performance as the Merlin (and later, the Griffin) engines.


The V-1710's manifold had 4 pipes feeding 3 cylinders (unlike the common plenum chamber design of the Merlin) and so was inherently prone to providing poor air-fuel distribution into the cylinders, leading to this problem of premature detonations in the cylinders whenever the engine was stressed to produce high power under unfavorable circumstances (e.g., in combat at 30,000 feet). The later two-stage supercharger was also a tacked on afterthought lacking all of the refined features of the Merlin's two-stage supercharger (chiefly, a backfire screen and an intercooler - the two-stage supercharger V-1710 used only anti-detonation injection to prevent detonation inside the supercharger) and was also prone to failure.“]





 

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