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Topic: OT - Weird History

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #140 on: January 31, 2022, 12:51:23 PM »
Because it's just incredulous to you, right?  

If so, then you're just putting your head in the sand when it comes to the radical changes in Christianity in the past 500 years.  Sorry friend, but this shit isn't static, it's fluid.  And it flows more socially liberal.  Every day, there are fewer gaps for god to hide in as our knowledge grows.  

I have no idea what they'll call it, but there will be a reformation-esque paradigm shift in what women wear in the Muslim world.  Apostates will be free to go on living normal lives, they'll dine on ham and bacon, and will separate church and state.  

Because all of its doctrines are bullshit - another thing both religions have in common.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #141 on: January 31, 2022, 01:28:53 PM »
The nature of technology is exponential. 500 years ago (roughly the time of Christopher Columbus sailin' the ocean blue), they might have recognized the general potential of the industrial revolution occurring. Do you think they could conceive of television? The internet?
I had a class in Economic History at Ohio State that was absolutely fascinating.  The nature of technology is exponential except not always.  The Professor started the class with the assertion that for all of Human History up until about 500 years ago our ancestors lived at or near subsistence.  Ie, they barely had enough food to survive so basically their entire lives were a never-ending struggle with famine.  There were a few times in a few places where humans advanced somewhat beyond this but they didn't keep advancing. 

He pointed out that the Egyptians were pretty far above subsistence as evidenced by the fact that they built the Pyramids.  They obviously had enough surplus food to be able to support a substantial labor force building pyramids.  Someone in the class then pointed out that the Egyptians used slave laborers and the Professor replied with two things:
  • Nearly all cultures of at least 1,000 years ago used slave labor so that doesn't make the Egyptians any different than the others, and
  • When you are living at or near subsistence the existence of slavery is basically irrelevant in a macro-sense.  It obviously matters to the individuals but for the economy at large one laborer is one mouth to feed irrespective of whether that laborer earns pay and buys food or is owned by someone who has to feed them.  Either way one laborer =  one mouth to feed. 

Similarly, the Romans were quite a bit above subsistence for a while as were the Chinese at one time and other cultures as well but none of them managed to achieve that "exponential technology".  Instead, each of the cultures that got themselves above bare subsistence for a while eventually waned and fell back to that bare subsistence level. 

It wasn't until Europe starting about 500 years ago that your "exponential technology" started to take hold. 

Curiously, one of the major triggers of the industrial revolution was the plague.  The Black Death killed around 50% of Europe's population between roughly 1346-1353.  One would think, intuitively, that this would be horrific and of course it was for the individuals who died of it and for their survivors but it was a massive economic boon. 

Think of it this way:
Imagine that @betarhoalphadelta and I are brothers and that we have two other brothers, we'll call them Darryl and Darryl.  Now suppose that our parents have left the four of us:
  • 12 acres of farmland (3 acres each)
  • 2 homes (1/2 each)
  • 8 oxen (2 each)
  • 2 plows (1/2 each)
Now suppose that Darryl and Darryl both die of the Black Death.  That is horrible and Beta and I would be very sad burrying our brothers but once we get past that, we will find that Beta and I now own:
  • 6 acres of farmland each (up from 3)
  • 1 home each (up from 1/2)
  • 4 oxen each (up from 2)
  • 1 plow each (up from 1/2)
In other words, Beta's and my per-capita wealth just increased by 100%. 

Then there is another interesting factor.  The Professor asked:
"If you only need 50% as much food due to the plague killing 50% of your people, what percentage of your farmland do you need to farm?"

Someone replied 50%.  The Professor thundered "NO".  Farmland is not all equal.  Some land is more productive than other land.  Thus if we only need 50% as much food we can probably get away with farming the most productive third of the farmland that we previously needed. 

Taking those together, Beta and I now have more tools (plows, oxen) and we each have a house and now we only need to farm a combined four acres which either of us can handle while only using 2/3 of the acreage that we own leaving the other one free to do something else like go invent stuff. 

Ie, in our post-plague reality I can farm four of my six acres and produce enough food for both Beta and I and Beta (the engineer) can go invent stuff to make me even more efficient.  This is basically how the Black Death contributed to the exponential increases in technology that started emanating from Europe about 500 years ago. 


One other interesting catalyst for the Industrial Revolution:
Britain ran out of wood.  Seriously, the British Isles aren't all that big and as their population increased they eventually starting running low on trees.  They weren't actually out but the price of wood began to increase because trees were no longer seen as infinitely available.  People had known for years that there was a black substance that could be found in the ground in some places that burned hotter than wood (coal) but as long as trees were infinitely available it didn't make economic sense to dig up coal when it was much easier to chop down trees.  The use of coal grew in England specifically because they were low on trees.  The use of coal contributed to two things that were vital to the Industrial Revolution:
  • Because Coal burns hotter than wood it is more effective at making Steel out of Iron Ore.  People back at least to the Romans had steel but making it was more of an art than a science.  Blacksmiths would make Iron and every once in a while they'd basically get lucky and make steel.  (This is an oversimplification but generally true).  Anyway, when Blacksmiths "lucked into" steel they would usually use it to make swords, or other high-value items while making horsehoes, plows, and other lower-value items out of iron.  The use of coal for heat made MUCH hotter fires which made it much easier to make steel. 
  • The first steam-engines were built and used to pump water out of coal mines. 

Interesting point:
Both the Romans and the Egyptians were REALLY close to the industrial revolution.  The Romans had hot-water heat which required a boiler and at least a basic understanding of the idea that when you heat water it turns to steam and expands.  They used that for heating homes and baths but that was it.  They stopped there.  It really doesn't take much to get from that to "hey, we could use this expanding water stuff (steam) to make power and convert it to rotational motion and build a train to take our legions to the front". 

The Egyptians actually had a palace toy that was basically a pipe with outlets on opposite sides placed over boiling water.  It would spin.  That is literally a rudimentary steam engine.  Put a pully on top of that sucker and . . . Industrial Revolution.  They never did. 

Consider where we would be if the Romans or the Egyptians had launched the Industrial Revolution several millennia or more prior to it's historical launch. 


Two final points because I find these fascinating.  If you go to Rome today you can see the Roman ruins.  Parts of the Colosseum and other Roman structures are visible.  We consider them to be ancient because they are around 2,000 years old.  When the Romans who built those things got to Egypt the Pyramids were older than the Roman ruins are now.  Ie, Imperial Rome is closer in time to us now than it is to the ancient Egyptian civilization. 

The Spanish under Ferdinand and Isabella famously completed kicking the Muslims out of Spain in 1492.  Note that the Umayyad conquest of Hispania began in 711.  Ie, Christoper Columbus is closer in time to us than he is to pre-Muslim Spain. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 01:37:10 PM by medinabuckeye1 »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2022, 01:31:16 PM »
Look, I gave you a source that I chose specifically so that YOU would respect it.  The Source is the author of "God is not Great".  I couldn't possibly have come up with a source more to YOUR liking.  I gave you that much, give me something back or go away as a troll.  It would be appreciated if you would at least respect THAT enough to actually engage with it rather than brushing it off with assertions that can neither be proven nor falsified and/or outright falsehoods. 
Because it's just incredulous to you, right? 

If so, then you're just putting your head in the sand when it comes to the radical changes in Christianity in the past 500 years.  Sorry friend, but this shit isn't static, it's fluid.  And it flows more socially liberal.  Every day, there are fewer gaps for god to hide in as our knowledge grows. 

I have no idea what they'll call it, but there will be a reformation-esque paradigm shift in what women wear in the Muslim world.  Apostates will be free to go on living normal lives, they'll dine on ham and bacon, and will separate church and state. 

Because all of its doctrines are bullshit - another thing both religions have in common.
Go away troll.  









Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2022, 01:55:54 PM »
I wonder if we have S curved technological progress.  Sure, TVs etc. get a bit better these days, and phones get better, etc.  The auto industry is in a sea change.  But a person from 1970 would adapt pretty quickly to today.  A person from 1920 would likely be astonished if put into 1970.

My Dad was born in 1917 in a house with no electricity.  With electricity, you have a major shift in quality of life, aside from light you can have a well with a pump and heat and hot water and entertainment in principle.  Maybe in 50 years we'll harness fusion, I tend to doubt it.  Space?  Still a problem with gravity.  Cooler electronics?  OK.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #144 on: January 31, 2022, 01:57:52 PM »
I think the point that kicked this whole thing off was that if the Christians hadn't won the Battle of Tours, we might all be Muslim. 

OAM assumed that this was a "thank God that didn't happen!" point and that it was an attack on Islam. I think he's half right, but missed the bigger point. 

-------------

The half that he's right is that from hindsight bias as people of a Western nation where the Judeo-Christian tradition drove much of the history of our society, we take our current history for granted. We're all selfish and self-centered people, who have been raised a certain way and believe it's the right way. We tell ourselves that we never would have had liberal democracy without those Judeo-Christian values. That may even be true. 

Of course, today's Muslims are selfish and self-centered, and have been raised a certain way and believe it's the right way. And that we're the wrong ones.

Funny how that works, eh?

The simple truth is that if the Christians had lost the Battle of Tours, and we were all Muslims today, we'd all be grateful that the "right" side had won and would be incredibly happy that our Muslim heritage had survived and flourished. Because we'd all have been raised that way. 

-------------

Where I think OAM's criticism was wrong was that I didn't read any "attack" on Islam into the original post. But if the Muslims had won the Battle of Tours, it likely would have drastically altered the entire course of human civilization. Maybe it would have been for the better. Maybe it would have been for the worse. 

But it's clear that the way the world developed over the last ~1300 years would be very different than it was. And society as it exists today would likely be very different than it is. 

How, precisely, would it differ? I can't really say based on the state of Islam and the West in 2021. Because just as the West would have developed very differently [and perhaps not even be something we call "Western Civilization"], Islam would have developed very differently IMHO had they conquered Europe. 

What we know based on previous conquerings is that often a conquering of a different land creates an inescapable blending of the cultures. Much of "Western" civilization is based on the mixing of cultures that occurred as various parts of Europe conquered each other over the centuries. The English language is a messed up amalgamation of diverse roots, some in Latin, some Germanic, and a fair bit that we've picked up elsewhere along the way. European culture in general is a giant mix. Add the Islam of the 700s into that mix and I can't predict what it would look like now. 

But the thing that I can predict is that it would be very different than what it is today. Most of us--the selfish and self-centered people that we are--like what we have today, so by default we have to view that suspiciously. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2022, 02:16:19 PM »

This is Napoleon's tomb in Paris in Les Invalides.  It's impressive to see in person.  The French have really built Napoleon up into a hero, usually, just as the Brits tried to tear him down as a short monomaniacal demon.  He was an impressive individual, building canals and of course the Napoleonic Code, aside from many military victories.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2022, 02:57:32 PM »
I wonder if we have S curved technological progress.  Sure, TVs etc. get a bit better these days, and phones get better, etc.  The auto industry is in a sea change.  But a person from 1970 would adapt pretty quickly to today.  A person from 1920 would likely be astonished if put into 1970.

My Dad was born in 1917 in a house with no electricity.  With electricity, you have a major shift in quality of life, aside from light you can have a well with a pump and heat and hot water and entertainment in principle.  Maybe in 50 years we'll harness fusion, I tend to doubt it.  Space?  Still a problem with gravity.  Cooler electronics?  OK.
I kinda disagree with your inflection points though... 

1920->1970 I get, because the television remade everything. It literally reorganized the way people interact with the world. I think, much more than radio, led to the "nationalization" of the USA. All of a sudden the people in NYC, Wichita, and Los Angeles were watching the same TV news anchors and sitcoms as each other. Sure, we put a man on the moon. But that's a parlor trick, culturally, compared to TV. The other aspect was travel--travel in 1920 was likely to be minimal due to cost and due to lack of need. But cars advanced TREMENDOUSLY over those 50 years, became more accessible to more people, and air travel went from nonexistent to a luxury good. 

However, 1970->Today would be incomprehensible. I'd say everything from the 1950s to about 2000 are something that you could wrap your head around. Yes, we started getting cellphones in the 1980s and they spread in the 1990s. Yes, the late 90's were the "dotcom" era, so we technically had the internet. We had Mapquest and Napster. We had search engines that worked, but there was damn near nothing to find. But nobody was walking around staring at their phones all day. Outside of buying dog toys on Pets.com, nobody spent their entire day on the internet. Almost nobody outside of the university or tech space had or used email. We didn't have an entire population carrying around HD video cameras in their pocket everywhere they go. We didn't have social media. 

I feel like someone from 1950 could be dropped into 1999 and would look around and say "oh, you've improved all the things I am familiar with". I think if you dropped someone from 1995 in 2021, they'd be completely lost and not recognize the world around them. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2022, 03:01:47 PM »
BTW I would highly recommend reading both Sapiens and Homo Deus

They really helps to highlight how we got where we are--and where we might be going...

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #148 on: January 31, 2022, 03:22:50 PM »
Guns, Germs, and Steel might help a few people become a little less in love with their own way of thinking (my way as the right way, as you so eloquently stated).
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #149 on: January 31, 2022, 03:32:02 PM »
I kinda disagree with your inflection points though...

1920->1970 I get, because the television remade everything. It literally reorganized the way people interact with the world. I think, much more than radio, led to the "nationalization" of the USA. All of a sudden the people in NYC, Wichita, and Los Angeles were watching the same TV news anchors and sitcoms as each other. Sure, we put a man on the moon. But that's a parlor trick, culturally, compared to TV. The other aspect was travel--travel in 1920 was likely to be minimal due to cost and due to lack of need. But cars advanced TREMENDOUSLY over those 50 years, became more accessible to more people, and air travel went from nonexistent to a luxury good.

However, 1970->Today would be incomprehensible. I'd say everything from the 1950s to about 2000 are something that you could wrap your head around. Yes, we started getting cellphones in the 1980s and they spread in the 1990s. Yes, the late 90's were the "dotcom" era, so we technically had the internet. We had Mapquest and Napster. We had search engines that worked, but there was damn near nothing to find. But nobody was walking around staring at their phones all day. Outside of buying dog toys on Pets.com, nobody spent their entire day on the internet. Almost nobody outside of the university or tech space had or used email. We didn't have an entire population carrying around HD video cameras in their pocket everywhere they go. We didn't have social media.

I feel like someone from 1950 could be dropped into 1999 and would look around and say "oh, you've improved all the things I am familiar with". I think if you dropped someone from 1995 in 2021, they'd be completely lost and not recognize the world around them.
I've made that point vis-a-vis the internet with my HS graduation.  I graduated in 1993 and Netscape came out that year.  There technically was an internet when I was in high school and I even saw it once at a friends' house but it was for mega-geeks not the masses.  Netscape was the first graphical user interface that brought the internet to the masses.  As such I've observed before that I think my HS experience was more similar to someone two decades earlier than it was to someone half a decade later.  

Seriously, think about it.  Even though there were cell phones and there was an internet in 1993 they were barely more in use than they had been in 1973 so basically my HS experience (graduating in 1993) was pretty similar to someone who graduated in 1973 with the exception of the draft being a major concern for guys who graduated in 1973 but the war was winding down by then so it wasn't nearly as much of a concern and anyway that isn't so much what I am referring to.  I mean socially.  In my early 1990's experience if you wanted to contact one of your friends you called their home phone and asked whoever answered to put them on.  Same as 1973.  In my early 1990's experience if you wanted to ask a girl out you got her number from a friend or from the phone book and called her house and asked whoever answered to put her on.  Same as 1973.  

If you graduated five years later your HS experience included email, MUCH greater use of cell phones, chat rooms, etc.  I remember my sophomore year at tOSU some other sophomores and I were hanging out with some Freshmen and they were in a thing called a "chat room" and we were like WTF is this, lets go do something.  That is only a one year difference and it was completely foreign to us.  

Similar comparison, I started at Ohio State in the fall of 1993.  On my floor of ~60 guys there were a grand combined total of two computers (plus another three word processors, remember those?).  My brother started in the fall of 1999 and had three roommates.  The four of them owned six computers (all four had PC's, two also had laptops).  That is a sea change of 1 PC per ~30 guys to 1.5 computers PER guy.  

I still remember getting the PAPER to look at the new top-25 on Monday after a College Football weekend.  I also still remember that one of the papers I read back then had a feature I liked where they listed the entire top-25 and who they were playing.  I used to make notes in that so I'd know what was going on.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #150 on: January 31, 2022, 03:32:20 PM »
Guns, Germs, and Steel might help a few people become a little less in love with their own way of thinking (my way as the right way, as you so eloquently stated).
Hello pot, this is the kettle.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #151 on: January 31, 2022, 03:58:16 PM »
Hello pot, this is the kettle. 
I'm merely not convinced there's a god.  And like 6 billion people are guilty of believing in one with zero substantive evidence.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #152 on: January 31, 2022, 04:09:24 PM »
I was quite disappointed with the book "G,G&S".  I read the nice reviews and picked it up used, and found it rather boring, to me.  I think there were some points in it, but on the whole it seemed "obvious"?  And it missed some significant items in my opinion.  

Emergency-Room Engineering: The 1962 Chevy II | Mac's Motor City Garage (macsmotorcitygarage.com)
Emergency-Room Engineering: The 1962 Chevy II | Mac's Motor City Garage (macsmotorcitygarage.com)

Sort of interesting to me as I had a '68 and a '73.  The latter was a decent enough car for its time, the former had the dreaded two speed powerglide transmission and an aftermarket AC.

I was thinking about this today driving my car to Costco and thinking how much better it is in every respect, but that's progress.  As for which 50 year period has been most "shocking", I don't know, of course, I'd probably select 1900 to 1950.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #153 on: January 31, 2022, 04:14:04 PM »
I'm merely not convinced there's a god.  And like 6 billion people are guilty of believing in one with zero substantive evidence. 
Talk about missing the point:
Guns, Germs, and Steel might help a few people become a little less in love with their own way of thinking (my way as the right way, as you so eloquently stated).
Since the existence of a higher power is neither provable nor falsifiable it shouldn't surprise you that people on the other side of that divide view you the same way that you view them.  

The point, and the difference within this thread (and in general with your postings here) is that YOU are the one who continually frames your points as insults and, see upthread, even when someone (me) goes out of their way to meet you on YOUR terms by using an explicitly anti-religious source, you still answer with insults and evasions.  

See, from this post:
Because it's just incredulous to you, right? 

If so, then you're just putting your head in the sand when it comes to the radical changes in Christianity in the past 500 years.  Sorry friend, but this shit isn't static, it's fluid.  And it flows more socially liberal.  Every day, there are fewer gaps for god to hide in as our knowledge grows. 

I have no idea what they'll call it, but there will be a reformation-esque paradigm shift in what women wear in the Muslim world.  Apostates will be free to go on living normal lives, they'll dine on ham and bacon, and will separate church and state. 

Because all of its doctrines are bullshit - another thing both religions have in common.
Insults to anyone who disagrees with you.  This was directed at me and accused me of:
  • Being incredulous as to something (after I took on the religion thing by quoting Hitchens).  
  • Putting my head in the sand vis-a-vis changes in Christianity which I specifically had addressed as differences rather than changes from age.  
  • Referring to the religion of anyone who believes as "bullshit".  

I was going to go back further but I've already more than proved my point with just one of your posts and yet you have the unmitigated audacity to implicitly accuse all who disagree with you of being "in love with their own way of thinking" which is EXACTLY what you are.  

Honestly Fro, I'm not the average poster who disagrees with you.  I don't toss out insults lightly.  I take your points and address them on their own merits.  An example is my choosing to use an explicitly anti-religious atheist as my source to counter your Christianity = Islam argument.  It would be different if I had tossed out some pro-Christian source as a response but I didn't, don't treat me like I did.  I took on your point on YOUR terms and you tossed out insults.  

I've made this point before but I'm going to make it again because it fits so well here.  Every time you and I are on the same side in a debate here I wish you would stop posting because your posts are so off-putting that they tend to push people away from our view.  Every time you and I are on the opposite side in a debate here I welcome your posts for the same reason.  

I sometimes wonder if you are actually the atheist leftist that you appear or if you are a truly ingenious Christian right winger who is operating as a parody of an atheist leftist.  Your posts are so off-putting that they are infinitely more effective if it is actually the latter.  





 

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