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Topic: OT - Underappreciated Movies

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longhorn320

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2024, 01:44:05 PM »
Big fan of the movie Sahara

it didnt do well at the box office but I really liked it

They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

jgvol

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2024, 02:21:03 PM »
"Hidalgo"

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2024, 02:35:04 PM »
Yeah, a supercarrier would be able to deal with the entire navies extant in 1941 until they ran out of ammo/avgas.

Maybe an enemy sub might sneak up on a single Nimitz.

But the speed makes that unlikely, and they could post Vikings around to protect the ship.

They probably would run short of avgas first.
These are the kinds of discussions that I think are fun coming from the premise of Final Countdown.  

I think that the fuel situation would be manageable.  Jet Fuel is not substantially different from diesel so 1941 refineries would probably be able to make it.  I don't think the AvGas for the piston planes on Nimitz was all that different from the AvGas used by WWII era military planes.  

Uranium for the Carrier would be trickier but you'd also have ~20 years to figure that one out.  

Ammunition would be a major problem.  Even in 1980 fighters mostly used air-to-air rockets not cannons and if you are spending one air-to-air rocket for each Zero you shoot down well Nimitz is going to run out of air-to-air rockets way before Japan runs out of Zeros.  

The other one I've wondered is what would actually be the optimal way for an F14 to take down a Zero?  An F14 is obviously a vastly superior aircraft but if you can't use air-to-air rockets due to shortage then it gets trickier.  If you slow down to the Zero's speed you'd be a sitting duck because the Zero would be MUCH more maneuverable.  Even WWII US fighters were advised to use their superior speed and avoid dogfights with the lighter and more maneuverable Zero, for the F14 this would be an absolute necessity but it is hard to shoot down a plane when you are maintaining an airspeed 500+MPH faster than them.  

My theory is that the Zeros were fragile enough that the turbulence from a close pass at supersonic speeds would probably rip it apart so just fly by them at high speed but this has it's own dangers and limitations.  

rolltidefan

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2024, 03:06:53 PM »
Big fan of the movie Sahara

it didnt do well at the box office but I really liked it


loved it too. steve zahn is underappreciated as an actor as well, imo.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2024, 03:54:37 PM »
Ammunition would be a major problem.  Even in 1980 fighters mostly used air-to-air rockets not cannons and if you are spending one air-to-air rocket for each Zero you shoot down well Nimitz is going to run out of air-to-air rockets way before Japan runs out of Zeros. 

The other one I've wondered is what would actually be the optimal way for an F14 to take down a Zero?  An F14 is obviously a vastly superior aircraft but if you can't use air-to-air rockets due to shortage then it gets trickier.  If you slow down to the Zero's speed you'd be a sitting duck because the Zero would be MUCH more maneuverable.  Even WWII US fighters were advised to use their superior speed and avoid dogfights with the lighter and more maneuverable Zero, for the F14 this would be an absolute necessity but it is hard to shoot down a plane when you are maintaining an airspeed 500+MPH faster than them. 
Strafing runs? 

With the greater ceiling and speed, you could be on the Zero from above and behind before they even knew you were there (I don't think they had onboard radar lol...) and it would be a lot easier for the 1941-era Americans to produce cannon rounds for the F14 than to try to produce air-to-air missiles w/o the ability to produce integrated circuits, i.e. impossible. 

And since you're basically trying to make a 1-pass kill at high closing speed, I don't think you're going to be around long enough for the Zero to try to train its guns on you, fire, and hit anything... 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2024, 04:09:09 PM »
Jet fuel is more akin to kerosene than Diesel, but same difference.  There is still an additive they use in Jet-A.  Our air to air missiles guide on radar or heat, or both.  It would be better to just have a high speed pass on Zeros to knock them silly.  You might be using a million dollar plus missile on a $50,000 plane.  

F-14s were famous for carrying Phoenix missiles with enormous range intended to take out Backfire bombers at long range, you wouldn't want to use them on Zeros.

Subs would probably be the greatest threat, but it would be very lucky for one of them to catch a Nimitz cruising along at 35 knots.  WW 2 subs did about 8 knots submerged and maybe 20 on the surface.   Anyway, it was kind of a fun movie in a way.

I read a scifi short story way back about some supersonic modern plane sent back to WW One and the problems it faced being effective.  Fuel was a main one.  It ended up doing the close pass thing to knock down biplanes.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2024, 04:26:58 PM »
A little OT for even an OT thread, but in the same vein there is an alternate history writer named Harry Turtledove who wrote a book called The Guns of the South. The premise was that some South Africans who were pissed off that Apartheid ever happened found a way to time travel, but something about the nature of it only allowed a time value of exactly 150 years prior to their current era. 

So they (being racists) decided that if they could go back and arm the South in the Civil War with AK-47's, the South would win the war and it would change history such that they'd never have Apartheid. 

Interesting book. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2024, 04:31:56 PM »
Strafing runs?

With the greater ceiling and speed, you could be on the Zero from above and behind before they even knew you were there (I don't think they had onboard radar lol...) and it would be a lot easier for the 1941-era Americans to produce cannon rounds for the F14 than to try to produce air-to-air missiles w/o the ability to produce integrated circuits, i.e. impossible.

And since you're basically trying to make a 1-pass kill at high closing speed, I don't think you're going to be around long enough for the Zero to try to train its guns on you, fire, and hit anything...
Agree on the air-to-air missiles. In this scenario the inventory on the ship is it, there will be no replacements.

You are right about the cannon rounds. The F14 had a 20MM Cannon and WWII US Industry was obviously capable of producing 20MM Cannon rounds (not the exact same gun nor round but for example the WWII era P38 had a 20MM Cannon as well).

Two things about Strafing runs:
First, I don't think it is as easy as it sounds. I don't know, but the cruising speed of the F14 is probably ~600MPH while a Zero can barely get over 300MPH max and their cruising speed is around 200MPH so the closing speed is going to be ~400MPH and you are shooting at a fairly small target that can move in three dimensions. This is vastly more difficult than strafing a building, train, or tank that is stationary or can only move at relatively low speed on one or two dimensions.

Also remember that you can't walk the aim all the way up to the target. At some point you HAVE to pull away (up, down, left, right, something). If you don't, you'll crash your irreplaceable F14 into either a Zero or the wreckage of a Zero and trading Zeros for F14's is a winning strategy for the Japanese.

Second is something that you would never suspect but I find interesting:
Years ago I read a book about Spitfires that was a compilation of pilot stories arranged chronologically. The last story was by a pilot who was assigned to "play" the enemy in mock combats for the British when they were getting ready to face some rebels who had WWII era planes somewhere in the 1960's. Ie, he was flying a Spitfire as the "Scout Team" so that they could figure out how best to take on WWII fighters with much newer jets.

They started out thinking what you suggested, from above. That makes sense because ever since the first air-to-air combat opposing pilots have always considered altitude to be an advantage. In this scenario, however, they determined that the jet was better off coming in from below because the prop-plane pilot has little or no ability to see something coming from that angle and because the jet had such a massive advantage in power/thrust to weight that altitude was unnecessary.  The Jet could come from below, fire, and just keep climbing at an angle that the prop plane simply couldn't follow.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2024, 04:45:29 PM »
The stall speed of an F-14 is listed as 132 mph, about 120 knots.  Flying near stall speed can be tricky, but they should be able to fly easily at 150-200 knots, it has variable wings of course, and flaps.   Zero might be more manueverable at that speed than an F-14.  I think best "shot" would be to track on radar and get visual at ~300 knots and then buzz past fast enough that the jet wash and turbulence upsets the Zero to an unrecoverable spin/stall.  If they hit burner on the pass the shock wave and noise would be impressive.

F14 landing speed is listed as 145 mph, around 135 knots.  






Cincydawg

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2024, 04:57:06 PM »
Good point on the coming up from below thing... 

That said, I don't think the strafing run is QUITE as hard as you might make it out to be... It would be so, of course, if the Zero knew something was coming for it and taking evasive action. 

And of course once you make 1 run on a squadron, they'll probably all start taking evasive action. But I'd think given that you have radar and can probably engage them WAY before they are in range of whatever they're attacking, all that maneuvering will use up a hell of a lot of fuel and they may not make it to where they're supposed to attack, right? 

So they can either be sitting ducks, or they can't make it to their target... 

LittlePig

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2024, 06:53:10 PM »
A little OT for even an OT thread, but in the same vein there is an alternate history writer named Harry Turtledove who wrote a book called The Guns of the South. The premise was that some South Africans who were pissed off that Apartheid ever happened found a way to time travel, but something about the nature of it only allowed a time value of exactly 150 years prior to their current era.

So they (being racists) decided that if they could go back and arm the South in the Civil War with AK-47's, the South would win the war and it would change history such that they'd never have Apartheid.

Interesting book.
This is a little confusing. 

Are you saying racist South africans (White guys?) did not want Arpartheid to ever happen, so they went back in time and armed the American South with AK-47's in the American Civil War and somehow this prevented Apartheid from happening in South Africa?  And this made the racist South Africans happy?

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2024, 07:01:01 PM »
This is a little confusing. 

Are you saying racist South africans (White guys?) did not want Arpartheid to ever happen, so they went back in time and armed the American South with AK-47's in the American Civil War and somehow this prevented Apartheid from happening in South Africa?  And this made the racist South Africans happy?
Sorry, I misspoke... They were angry about the end of Apartheid. 

Brain fart on that one. It's been years since I read the book. 

LittlePig

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Re: OT - Underappreciated Movies
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2024, 07:12:05 PM »
Sorry, I misspoke... They were angry about the end of Apartheid.

Brain fart on that one. It's been years since I read the book.
Ah,  that makes a lot more sense.  Thanks.  Sounds like an interesting alternate history with a surprising twist at the end. 

 

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