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Topic: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread

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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2072 on: Today at 12:31:30 PM »
and on the bright side, it seems we've moved past bashing boomers for the time being :96:
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2073 on: Today at 12:46:07 PM »
The goal of any business owner is to make as much money as possible. It's got nothing to do with greed.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2074 on: Today at 12:58:40 PM »
The goal of any business owner is to make as much money as possible. It's got nothing to do with greed.
And the goal of any investor (i.e. partial business owner) is to invest in companies that make money, because that's how they get rewarded for their investment.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2075 on: Today at 01:08:19 PM »
some folks act as if they think of greed as a bad thing
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

jgvol

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2076 on: Today at 01:18:16 PM »
some folks act as if they think of greed as a bad thing

Well, it is one of the 7 deadly sins.  I'd say it's not great.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2077 on: Today at 02:23:14 PM »
The goal of any business owner is to make as much money as possible. It's got nothing to do with greed.
And the goal of any investor (i.e. partial business owner) is to invest in companies that make money, because that's how they get rewarded for their investment.

Yep.
Fuck the customer as much as you can without driving them away, in service of your shareholders.  Good summary, gents.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2078 on: Today at 02:28:44 PM »
  What they're really doing is evading the US tax system, one of the less friendly ones in the world to businesses.  
I'll let our economy/stock market know that its obscene gains since the 70s shouldn't have happened.  

Honestly, which is it?
Their breakneck avoidance to pay taxes/find-exploit loopholes has led to their success OR
They paid their unfriendly taxes all these years and still produced epic/unprecedented gains/success?!?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2079 on: Today at 02:52:54 PM »
I wouldn't mind having them pay what I feel is their fair share of taxes, but that's just like my opinion, Man!

unfortunately, I'm not in charge of taxes and the folks that are, seem to think the corps are payin their fair share
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2080 on: Today at 03:08:51 PM »
Some people are not cut out to own businesses. I can tell who they are.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2081 on: Today at 03:19:36 PM »
Yep.
Fuck the customer as much as you can without driving them away, in service of your shareholders.  Good summary, gents.
Well, OAM, you're probably right there in it with us...

https://www.azasrs.gov/content/asset-allocation

Or... Did you not want your pension to be decent? 

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2082 on: Today at 03:24:10 PM »
I'll let our economy/stock market know that its obscene gains since the 70s shouldn't have happened. 

Honestly, which is it?
Their breakneck avoidance to pay taxes/find-exploit loopholes has led to their success OR
They paid their unfriendly taxes all these years and still produced epic/unprecedented gains/success?!?


Your wording is weird and kind of ill-conceived, I think.  I thought it was obvious I'm pointing to your first option as the choice of quite a few corporations.  Yet you're writing this like there's some kind of Gotcha! dilemma that I've fallen into.  If so, you didn't explain it very well.  

Your statement here, as much sense of it as I can make, has a couple of problems.  

1)  A company can move a significant chunk of its operations--or even all of it--overseas, and still be publicly traded here in the US.  Specifically, they frequently relocate manufacturing, and as you've noted, support.  But it can be anything, and sometimes everything.  As long as they meet certain federal requirements, they can still be listed on the NYSE and NASDAQ and form crucial parts of people's retirements and investment portfolios.  So if someone says that rising US stock indices proves that corporations are bearing US taxes, there's a complication.  Namely, that many publicly traded companies are not purely domestic entities whose profits depend entirely on US taxation.  

2)  We have a classic aggregation problem here.  Just because some corps can and do stay, and remain very profitable in doing so, does not mean all corps can, or do.  Crude example:

Company A moves operations abroad because US taxes are too costly.
Company B stays in the US and remains profitable.
Company C benefits from the reduced number of competitors.
Company D is a foreign multinational entity listed in the US. 

The overall stock market can rise significantly, but the success of the aggregate market does not prove that every constituent firm found US taxes bearable.  And similarly, if some corps leave because of taxes, the remaining corps' stock performances don't prove that taxes had no effect on departing corps.  This is very close to the fallacy of composition, thought it's not quite it.  I'd say the more precise issue is that aggregate outcomes don't automatically indicate what happened to each individual member of the group.  

There's also the matter of risk tolerance here.  Corporations are not static, uniform things.  They have vastly different needs, mechanisms of survival, and pathways to profitability.  That last part greatly depends on the risk tolerance of those running the show.  Just because one group of guys says "We can stay here" doesn't mean the guys at the next corp are willing to say the same thing, even if theoretically they could.  

Simply observing that the stock market has risen substantially over time is not sufficient to make your point.  To argue that corporations can (or should) bear the brunt of US taxes and remain wildly successful, we'd need evidence like studies measuring the incidence of corporate tax, comparison of profits before and after tax changes, and evidence concerning wage effects, consumer prices, and capital mobility/offshoring. 

For example, the US stock market has risen greatly since the 70's, as you point out, but corporate tax rates, among many other things, has changed.  The market's rise by itself can't isolate the power of correlation within those various factors. 

I don't know of any studies that would support your take, but I have reviewed a number of them back in my undergrad days that undermine it.  



FearlessF

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2083 on: Today at 03:45:48 PM »
Well, it is one of the 7 deadly sins.  I'd say it's not great.
according to whom?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2084 on: Today at 03:58:46 PM »
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

jgvol

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Re: OT - Grumpy Old Man Thread
« Reply #2085 on: Today at 03:58:51 PM »

 

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