Author
Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?
(Read 10083 times)

CWSooner · « **Reply #126 on:** June 08, 2019, 04:58:23 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on June 08, 2019, 01:02:57 PM

I believe the Allies took Rome right around the same time as D-Day and knocked Italy out of the war. Hitler set up a rump state in Northern Italy and Kesselring continued his very good defense on the peninsula until the end of the war despite having left overs.

Speaking of generals, Mark Clark often does not come off well in histories, I don't know if that is fair or not.

John S. Wood and Creighton Abrams come out well among those who have heard of them.

Albert Kesselring was pretty remarkable. A Luftwaffe officer who commanded combined forces at theater level.

Mark Clark's mediocre reputation was well-earned, IMO.
I don't know much about Wood, beyond the fact that he was widely respected by his peers and his subordinates, but had trouble getting along with his superiors.
Can't say enough good about Creighton Abrams, who was to some degree Wood's protege, I think. Too bad he didn't replace William Westmoreland about 2 years before he did. We might not have lost in Vietnam. And too bad he died early. The army that fought so brilliantly in Desert Storm was the end result of reforms begun when Abrams was U.S. Army CoS in the '70s.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #127 on:** June 08, 2019, 05:20:09 PM »

CW spot on regarding your views of commanders.Markus Aurelious Clarkus they called him around Rome.Kesselring whom I haven't researched too much gets high marks from most however there were also alot of executions under his watch/command

MrNubbz · « **Reply #128 on:** June 08, 2019, 05:30:34 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on June 08, 2019, 04:16:25 PM

And this is largely the case throughout the former British Empire. The former colonies that are most successful today are predominantly former British colonies.

Sorry but most take an un british like stance.The Crown was as full of themselves as the Reich was.Most learned from their mistakes and the founding fathers were keen to notice and adjust the constitution,bill of rights and laws accordingly.Screw their Feudal class system.Their barons,bishops,princes,Kings and cockroaches.They were a fine example of a bad example.They weren't the nose in the air mutts you see on PBS.Again the sun never set on their empire because of Christian Charity.The Brits were @*!&%^$ plain and simple.Everything they had they took by force.Thank God for the influx of many nationalities

CWSooner · « **Reply #129 on:** June 08, 2019, 06:06:36 PM »

Quote from: MrNubbz on June 08, 2019, 05:20:09 PM

CW spot on regarding your views of commanders.Markus Aurelious Clarkus they called him around Rome.Kesselring whom I haven't researched too much gets high marks from most however there were also alot of executions under his watch/command

I'm not sure that there were any high commanders in the Wehrmacht who had clean hands, much as they tried to downplay their treatment of civilians after the war. I don't excuse Kesselring.
Just like I don't excuse R.E. Lee, whose troops in the Antietam and Gettysburg campaigns captured free blacks and took them back south as slaves.

CWSooner · « **Reply #130 on:** June 08, 2019, 06:10:27 PM »

Quote from: MrNubbz on June 08, 2019, 05:30:34 PM

Sorry but most take an un british like stance.The Crown was as full of themselves as the Reich was.Most learned from their mistakes and the founding fathers were keen to notice and adjust the constitution,bill of rights and laws accordingly.Screw their Feudal class system.Their barons,bishops,princes,Kings and cockroaches.They were a fine example of a bad example.They weren't the nose in the air mutts you see on PBS.Again the sun never set on their empire because of Christian Charity.The Brits were @*!&%^$ plain and simple.Everything they had they took by force.Thank God for the influx of many nationalities

Heh! "The best of a bad example" means that they were still better than any other European powers of the time.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #131 on:** June 09, 2019, 05:16:59 AM »

I read Guderian's autobioigraphy and found it very self serving and full of excuses, "We could have won the war if Hitler had listened to me.".

B. Lidell Hart connived with Guderian to get both of them luster.

I think one has to read multiple "versions" about something like this to start to get a truer picture.

We Americans and Brits have heard of Rommel of course, but no Balck and Manstein and Guderian and Kesselring nearly to the same extent. Manstein may have been the best general in the 20th century both in tactical and strategic terms. Rommel was built up by Hollywood and the Brits because Monty "beat him".

Rommel was a fine general I think, very daring, had he been given more support in North Africa, the Germans might have taken the mideast oil fields and Suez.

CWSooner · « **Reply #132 on:** June 09, 2019, 12:43:58 PM »

A dry Martini, with a 15:1 ratio of gin to vermouth, is called a Montgomery, because those were the odds he required before he would attack.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #133 on:** June 09, 2019, 04:23:06 PM »

Ha! I've read about the Monty Mixer quite a few times.CD's right,Manstein,Guderian,K'Ring & Balck all excellant.Would have like to see the Brits Leave the Auck,Dorman-Smith and specially O'Connor alone.Any of them would have out distanced 15:1

CWSooner · « **Reply #134 on:** June 09, 2019, 05:10:40 PM »

Here's a good article on the Higgins Boat (LCVP), what Ike later called "the invention that won the war."

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #135 on:** June 09, 2019, 06:31:48 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on June 08, 2019, 04:22:11 PM

Text of President Roosevelt's Radio Address - Prayer on D-Day, June 6, 1944:

"My fellow Americans: Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest-until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and good will among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas -- whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them--help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us Faith. Give us Faith in Thee; Faith in our sons; Faith in each other; Faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister Nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen."

I wonder what's more useful, a great prayer or a great general?

FearlessF · « **Reply #136 on:** June 09, 2019, 07:29:29 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on June 09, 2019, 12:43:58 PM

A dry Martini, with a 15:1 ratio of gin to vermouth, is called a Montgomery, because those were the odds he required before he would attack.

that's the ratio I like my martini

MrNubbz · « **Reply #137 on:** June 09, 2019, 08:18:42 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 09, 2019, 06:31:48 PM

I wonder what's more useful, a great prayer or a great general?

During the Revolutionary War they had a saying "Pray to GOD,boys but keep your powder dry"

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #138 on:** June 10, 2019, 09:28:28 AM »

Quote from: CWSooner on June 08, 2019, 04:16:25 PM

All of which doesn't really have much to do with my point that I think you were responding to, which is that the British were much better at propaganda than the Germans in World War I.

It is incredible how incompetent the Germans were at it. During WWI the Germans were roundly criticized in the US for their "unrestricted submarine warfare" (same in WWII) and that was contrary to international law at the time. What is interesting is that the British blockade of neutral ships/ports was equally contrary to international law and appears to have just been accepted as a matter of course. If the Germans in WWI had done a better job of illustrating Britain's flagrant contempt for the very same international law that the Germans were violating it might have kept the US out of the war and the German's late offensives could have been successful without US support for the collapsing French Army.

On the subject of unrestricted submarine warfare, after WWII there were some attempts to prosecute the Nazi Naval leaders for it and they largely failed because US admirals from the Pacific were called to testify and had to admit that the US did exactly the same thing to Japan. The primary difference being that the US Navy was completely successful where the German Navy failed.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #139 on:** June 10, 2019, 09:29:57 AM »

Quote from: MrNubbz on June 08, 2019, 05:30:34 PM

Sorry but most take an un british like stance.The Crown was as full of themselves as the Reich was.Most learned from their mistakes and the founding fathers were keen to notice and adjust the constitution,bill of rights and laws accordingly.Screw their Feudal class system.Their barons,bishops,princes,Kings and cockroaches.They were a fine example of a bad example.They weren't the nose in the air mutts you see on PBS.Again the sun never set on their empire because of Christian Charity.The Brits were @*!&%^$ plain and simple.Everything they had they took by force.Thank God for the influx of many nationalities

It isn't just the Europeans. Everybody who could had colonies. If you had to choose who would colonize you, you would be smart to pick the British over any of the others, especially the Japanese.

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Topic: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

MrNubbz

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

MrNubbz

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

Cincydawg

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

MrNubbz

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

CWSooner

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

OrangeAfroMan

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

FearlessF

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

MrNubbz

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

medinabuckeye1

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?

medinabuckeye1

Re: OT - D-Day, what if?