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Topic: OSU and reality

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Riffraft

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #252 on: November 01, 2019, 10:30:49 AM »
I think it is funny that someone brought up the "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy, (Which was true) When what we have mostly seen on both sides is ad hominin.

Never can understand why it is necessary when we disagree with someone. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #253 on: November 01, 2019, 11:01:42 AM »
This Fields guy looks to me like a really capable QB.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #254 on: November 01, 2019, 11:14:50 AM »
The living at home thing, it irks a lot of people, but I can’t help but wonder if it’s just a reversion to the way things used to be. A contraction of a historical blip.

So how long ago was it assumed a person was automatically out of the house at 18, maybe since WWII? So about 60-65 years? That’s not all that long. It’s about as long as pensions existed, which are economically nonsensical, but were normalized and took a while to phase out.

So going to college, never coming back became normalized, but what if it’s not economically advantageous short term? Let’s do the math. You’re going to end up with minimum $600 a month in costs between rent and bills, and $700 is more likely still on the low side. So that’s $7,200 or $8,400 on the low end to just feel like more of an adult.

If one of you’re kids said I’m spending $7,200 a year to feel more like an adult, you’d tell them to be responsible. I see a measure of responsibility, using an unused room. You can’t just be a drain, but I think it’s an outlier only in a recent historical term.

(To be clear, this is in a short term world rather than a long term. If you’re home a year or even six months, you best be helping out in a big way.)
This is a fascinating take.  I think there is a lot of truth in what you have said here.  I also think that we are getting poorer (or at least not getting richer nearly as quickly as we were in the 40's, 50's, and 60's) and that has a lot to do with it as well.  

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #255 on: November 01, 2019, 01:35:34 PM »
I think it is funny that someone brought up the "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy, (Which was true) When what we have mostly seen on both sides is ad hominin.

Never can understand why it is necessary when we disagree with someone.
I refuse to engage in ad hominin attacks as they generally say more about the person attacking than they do of the person on the receiving end. I know that my opinions are just that, opinions. And I also understand that they may differ from others, and that is fine. I just want to be sure that I express my opinion correctly so that those reading it will understand what I wish to convey as opposed to what they may want to believe. 

FearlessF

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #256 on: November 01, 2019, 01:46:43 PM »
I lived with my father into my upper 20's

I was working construction management building pork slaughter plants.  Living in hotels on site out of town.  Didn't seem like a great idea to have a house or an apartment that I could only visit a few days a month.

My daughter lives in my basement.  She's 25 and still wondering what she wants to do with her life.

Sharing a house with someone, especially a parent or a child, just makes good finacial sense under the right situation.

I don't look down on young people for this....
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #257 on: November 01, 2019, 01:55:28 PM »
Different people obviously face different situations and judging them based on some generality without knowledge of the individual issues involved is not worthwhile in my view.  I don't see any inherent absolute reason for bias against those who live with their parents.  It's their business anyway, not mine.

I'm "glad" mine are gone, but happy when they visit.  If something happened and they needed to come back, they would be welcome.

FearlessF

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #258 on: November 01, 2019, 02:29:52 PM »
I think it's Okay to judge George Costanza

but he's a fictional character
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #259 on: November 01, 2019, 03:19:11 PM »
This is one of the stranger debates I can recall on this message board.    Not sure anybody has been covered in glory.

I thought my physics joke was pretty funny.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #260 on: November 01, 2019, 03:21:30 PM »
This Fields guy looks to me like a really capable QB.

He transferred to OSU so he never had to play LSU again.

Oh wait, the two won't play for another 65 years anyway, nm.....

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #261 on: November 01, 2019, 03:36:20 PM »
I'm getting back to @bwarbiany 's comment about the political drift of the upper midwest in part because at least a couple of other people expressed an interest in it.  

The following chart shows how the popular vote by state for most of the B1G states along with @bwarbiany 's chosen home state of California compared to the national popular vote in each presidential election for the 15 US Presidential elections from 1960-2016:

How this was derived:

I used WIKI and entered the national popular vote republican and democratic percentages for each of the 15 Presidential elections.  Then I eliminated third party candidates by calculating the republican percentage of the two-party vote*.  Next, I did the same thing for each of the nine states that I included.  Finally, I subtracted the national republican percentage of the two party vote from the republican percentage of the state popular vote.  Ie, looking at 2016, Indiana is the most Republican state at 11.23%.  That means that the percentage of the two party vote in Indiana that went Republican in 2016 was 11.23% more Republican than the percentage of the two party vote that went Republican nationally.  Conversely, California is the most Democratic state at -15.02%.  That means that the percentage of the two party vote in California that went Democratic in 2016 was 15.02% more Democratic than the percentage of the two party vote that went Democratic nationally.   



FearlessF

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #262 on: November 01, 2019, 04:09:47 PM »
we all know that Nebraska is a BIG RED state
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #263 on: November 01, 2019, 04:21:47 PM »
Trends in my above chart:

Indiana:
The Hoosier State has been Pretty solidly Republican for the entire duration of the chart.  It only went Democratic in the Democratic landslide victories of 1964 and 2008 and even in those it was still much more Republican than the nation as a whole.  It appears to be perhaps trending somewhat more Republican with the exception of 2008 which looks like an outlier.  

Iowa:
The Hawkeye State is the toughest one to get a read on.  It is the only of these nine states that has been both the most strongly Republican (1960) and the most strongly Democratic (1988).  Amusingly, when Iowa was the furthest of these nine to one side, both time that side lost.  I honestly have no idea why Iowa was so strongly Republican in 1960 and 1968 nor why it was so strongly Democratic in 1972, 1984, and 1988.  Other than those five and 2016, Iowa has been very close to the National vote.  

Ohio:
The Buckeye State bounced back-and-forth between being slightly Democratic and slightly Republican from 1960-1972 then settled in slightly more Republican for nine of ten elections from 1976-2012 (and only VERY slightly more Democratic in the lone exception of 2004) then took a sharp right turn in 2016.  There does appear to be a slight righward trend that predates 2016 but it is VERY slight.  

Wisconsin:
The Badger State was Republican in 1960, 1968, and 1976 but Democratic in 1964, far left in 1972, and pretty strongly Democratic in the three elections in the 80's.  There was a sudden rightward shift between 1988 (5.76% more Democratic than the Nation) and 1992 (0.66% more Republican than the Nation) and I don't know why.  What is interesting is that the 88-92 shift appears to have been more-or-less permanent as Wisconsin has been slightly left or slightly right ever since.  

Pennsylvania:
The Keystone State was, rather notably, part of Trump's winning coalition in the last election but their rightward drift started long before the 2016 election.  As recently as 1988 Pennsylvania was to the left of California and about even with Illinois at around 3% left of the nation as a whole.  Since then, Pennsylvania has become more competitive.  In the seven elections since 1988 Pennsylvania has averaged just 1.10% left of the nation and never been more than 2.5% left of the nation.  That said, Pennsylvania voted left of the Nation in every election from 1960-2012 but moved sharply right in 2016.  

Michigan:
In 1960 and 1964 Michigan was the furthest left of the nine states shown here.  Even in 1968 and 1972 Michigan was still one of the furthest left.  The 1976 election is a bit of an outlier due to Michigan native (and former Wolverine Football Player) Gerald Ford heading the Republican ticket.  Maybe it was a carry-over from voting for Ford or maybe those "Reagan Democrats" that you may have heard of were a real thing, at least in Michigan because Republican Presidential candidates did pretty well in Michigan in 1980, 1984, and 1988 but then Michigan drifted back toward where it had been in the 60's peaking with Obama doing 4.68% better in Michigan than he did nationally in 2008.  The last two elections saw Michigan make a sharp rightward turn moving to just 3% more Democratic than the Nation in 2012 and a little over 1% more Republican in 2016.  

Minnesota:
This one has the most clear long-running rightward drift.  From 1968-1988 (six elections) Minnesota was either the most Democratic of these nine states or the second most Democratic and the state was at least 5.49% more Democratic than the nation in each of those six elections.  In the 90's the state was about 4-5% more Democratic than the Nation and since then it has been a competitive state.  In the five elections from 2000-2016 the State has averaged just 1.45% more Democratic than the Nation and only once (3.01% in 2004) was it more than 2% more Democratic than the Nation.  In 2016 the State voted slightly more Republican than the Nation which had not happened previously within the bounds of this analysis.  

Illinois:
Illinois has gone from being a battleground state in the 60's, 70's and 80's to being solidly Democratic today.  In the eight elections from 1960-1988 Illinois averaged just 0.49% more Democratic than the Nation with a range from 2.89% more Democratic in 1988 to 2.07% more Republican in 1976.  In the seven elections since 1988 Illinois has averaged 6.56% more Democratic than the Nation and never been less than 4.86% more Democratic (1996).  

California:
In the eight Presidential elections from 1960-1988 California averaged 0.26% more Republican than the Nation.  However, that is probably a big skewed by the fact that Californians headed the Republican ticket in five of those eight elections (Nixon in 1960, 1968, and 1972; Reagan in 1980 and 1984).  California's leftward drift started long before it became apparent.  Californians Nixon (in 1972) and Reagan (in 1984) actually did WORSE in their home state than they did nationally and in the last five elections Republicans have done increasingly worse in California than they have done Nationally each time out.  

I don't know that there is an overall trend in the upper midwest but there was a massive rightward shift in 2016.  Note that in 2016 the Republican candidate did much better than their 2012 predecessor in Indiana, Iowa, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Minnesota while doing worse in Illinois and California.  That sentence pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the 2016 election:  Trump did better than his Republican predecessors in competitive states where it mattered and worse in non-competitive states where it didn't matter.  

The big question going forward is whether the massive Republican improvement in those competitive great lakes states in 2016 is a sustainable structural change (like the rightward shift in WI in 1988-1992) or a one-time blip (like the rightward shift in Iowa in 1964-1968).  If it is only a one-time blip then Republican's are in serious trouble because with Virginia turning blue (or at least purple) and some other formerly solidly red states turning purple the Republicans can't compete unless one of two things happens:

  • There is an unexpected major rightward shift in some other currently democratic area, or
  • Republicans can keep at least most of the great lakes states in reach.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #264 on: November 01, 2019, 04:25:40 PM »
we all know that Nebraska is a BIG RED state
That is why I didn't include them in the chart.  There isn't much worth discussing because Nebraska is to the right of Indiana.  They haven't voted Democratic in a Presidential election since LBJ's landslide in 1964 (and even that was close in NE).  Prior to that it was 1936 when Nebraskans voted for FDR over Alf Landon who didn't even carry his neighboring home state of Kansas.  

MrNubbz

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #265 on: November 01, 2019, 04:45:48 PM »
I thought my physics joke was pretty funny.
It was....after I looked it up
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