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Topic: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance

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FearlessF

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2025, 08:46:27 PM »
I prefer the balance on number of yards instead of number of plays
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2025, 09:10:51 PM »
I think that's a little bit reductionist. Some teams are just built around the pass. Mike Leach's TTU teams, Joe Tiller's Purdue teams, June Jones' Hawaii teams, etc. Those teams weren't "always behind". Sometimes they were behind against the best teams (because they weren't power teams), but they were still throwing it around against lesser competition because that was their identity.

Your percentages might be viable for helmet teams in CFB, who can just out-muscle lesser opponents. But in the NFL where there is parity, in 2024 there were only 3 teams out of 32 in 2024 who were below 50% passing plays. (Admittedly the Super Bowl champ was #32 of 32.)
Those pass-heavy college teams were extreme outliers.  My point stands for the middle 95% of teams, trust me.

I have no knowledge or interest in NFL.  But my knowledge concerns numerous decades of college, where the passing % is way up.  I have no doubt a modern, 1-year data set is far different from my reporting.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2025, 10:03:23 PM »
And this is where I say the analytics/metrics are wrong. Because it's not about "more passing" or about getting A first down. It's about sustaining drives.

The problem is this. Take two teams, one that has a competent rushing and passing offense, facing another that has a competent rushing and passing defense.

  • If the offense passes on first and second down, they're more likely to convert a first down in those two plays than if they ran on first and second down.
  • If the offense passes on first and second down, they're more likely to end up in 3rd and 10 after those two plays than if they ran on first and second down. Especially since they're probably sitting and 2nd and 10 after the first [incomplete] pass, causing the defense to change the way they defend because 2nd and 10 is more of a "passing down" than 2nd and 6.

If you only look at the former, it suggests passing is optimal. Because if you're looking purely at "success rate" being tied to getting a first down, passing looks good. But if you're 80 yards from the opposing end zone and you need multiple first downs to score a TD, you need to avoid those 3rd and 10 situations too. 

But you need to force the defense into those two deep shell coverages to be able to run effectively. It's about the threat of the pass making the offense more effective overall by forcing the defense to respect it. And you have to pass often enough--and effectively enough--to do that.

On first and 10, a "neutral" game script situation, I think there's more desire to pass often enough that the defense needs to be on their heels. I'm not sure what that number is as a percentage for any given team--and it may be the answer is "more often than almost every team does". But I don't think we should extrapolate that to believe the metrics point to passing more in every spot, at least if you're looking at things like success rate or average yards per play. Because it's about sustaining drives, and passing has higher variability to go along with those higher averages. Variability is more likely to stall your drive IMHO.
I mean, this feels like it boils down passing too much? Like, there's a mess of ways to pass, and honestly a mess of ways to run. We boil them down a lot in part because we lack a high level of expertise and because it's easier to process a lot of data that way. 

I more referenced it because I'm talking about the way people feel vs. the mechanics of the game. 

I said the metrics pointed to that because I read some of the metrics folks who suggested as such. I don't have a strong preferential that teams should throw more. Pick what you want to do, do it well, rinse and repeat. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2025, 03:22:21 PM »
One thing that this ties into is the punting/going for it issue.  

I've long thought that an interesting experiment would be a run-happy team that never punted.  

The thing is that the innovators and just generally crazy/non-traditional coaches tend to be pass-happy and not punting doesn't mesh well with a pass-happy offense because a lot of your 4th downs are 4th and 10 after three incompletions.  

Being committed to not punting would mesh a LOT better with a run-happy team.  If you think about it, 10 yards is 360 inches so if you are punting on 4th downs then you need 120 inches per play to sustain a drive (360/3=120) but if you aren't punting on 4th down then you only need 90 inches per play to sustain a drive (360/4=90).  That is an enormous, 25% reduction in what you need per play.  

Woody was famously all about "Three Yards and a cloud of dust" but that actually assumed that at least one out of three plays had to go for a little more because 3+3+3=9.  If you aren't punting then three yards is plenty because 3+3+3+3=12.  90" is only 7-1/2' or 2-1/2 yards and that works if you are going for it on 4th down.  It also makes you a lot more unpredictable on 3rd down because typically on 3rd and 5 you are passing to try to pick up the first down but if you know that you are going for it on 4th down then running makes perfect sense on 3rd and 5 because another 90" (7-1/5 feet, 2-1/2 yards) gets you half way there.  

Several innovative coaches have hinted at this idea but I haven't seen it tried by a smash-mouth running team which is the best offense for it, IMHO.  

FearlessF

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2025, 03:43:21 PM »
I think a smart coach could device plans with punt teams, FG teams, and regular offensive formations to go for it on many 4th downs.
Especially 4th and short (less than 4 yards)
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Cincydawg

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2025, 04:51:48 PM »
The top ten(ish) teams in CFB nearly always are about balanced when facing other elite level teams.  They strive to be, usually.  I'm interesting in play calling to start the game with a credible opponent.  What I usually see is some kind of run off tackle etc.  This of course is fine if you get 5+ yards, and OK at 4 yards, and not great at 3- yards.  It's so predictable I'm sure defenses hedge against the run.  So, maybe you get 2nd and 7, and then what?  Run again?  Maybe you pass incomplete and now are in a hole.  It would be interesting to dive into some statistical analysis on play calling at say Ohio State against say Texas and see how they started the first series and what happened.

In the Tenn-UGA game, I noticed that after two series the Vols had 150 yards because they scored a TD started at their 25 both times, looking pretty salty against a credible D.  Their QB was 14 for 14 I think at one point.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2025, 04:53:44 PM »
I mean, this feels like it boils down passing too much? Like, there's a mess of ways to pass, and honestly a mess of ways to run. We boil them down a lot in part because we lack a high level of expertise and because it's easier to process a lot of data that way.

I more referenced it because I'm talking about the way people feel vs. the mechanics of the game.

I said the metrics pointed to that because I read some of the metrics folks who suggested as such. I don't have a strong preferential that teams should throw more. Pick what you want to do, do it well, rinse and repeat.
I wasn't trying to suggest teams are passing too much. 

IMHO it's not about any specific ratio. It's about forcing defenses to defend horizontally and vertically.

The defense's advantages are numbers--there's always 1 more tackler than blocker, and 2 if the QB isn't a run threat--and angles--you have to go around them to gain yards and distances are shorter for them to cut you off. 

The way to beat that is to force the defense to defend as much space as possible. That's hard to do running the football. It doesn't matter how good you are running; you're not going to sustain a lot of drives running into 9 man boxes because that's the only area the defense has to cover. 

If you're like the old-school Wisconsin, a power running team, you need to be able to get the defense wide with things like swing passes horizontally and push the safeties back with playaction throws vertically. You run [successfully] to set up the pass which pushes the defense off allowing you to continue to do what you want: run. For teams like Tiller's Purdue teams or any of the Air Raid teams, you do the opposite. You spread the defense formationally and you threaten to throw the ball deep (i.e. Air Raid / 4 verts) to take defenders out of the box allow you chances to hit bigger running plays than you normally could. 

Where I think the metrics get it wrong is that the metrics look at individual play probabilities, and not at the holistic concept of playcalling being about making a defense defend the entire field. 

It's simple. If you run too much on first down, defenses will work to take that away by loading the box. If you pass too much on first down, defenses will be more inclined to blitz and have their pass rushers pin their ears back to pressure the QB. So if you're sub-optimal running too often, you don't pass more on first down "because the metrics say so", you pass more on first down to make the defense respect that you're willing and able do it. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2025, 07:59:07 PM »
I prefer the balance on number of yards instead of number of plays
Sure, but the outcomes can't be predicted.  All you can control is the play type (ignoring Vince Young scrambling on a bunch of called pass plays).

That's why I developed a football game where you determine the play type, but the outcomes, while adding up to the actual averages of the team, vary greatly within each play type.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2025, 08:12:02 PM »
Also in my research, I found that down-and-distance matters very little in the first 3 quarters of a game.  Passing teams are going to pass and running teams are going to run.  



“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2025, 09:25:34 PM »
Sure, but the outcomes can't be predicted.  All you can control is the play type (ignoring Vince Young scrambling on a bunch of called pass plays).

That's why I developed a football game where you determine the play type, but the outcomes, while adding up to the actual averages of the team, vary greatly within each play type. 

I agree.

I don't think Play callers continuously check percentages of plays or total yards.
it's obviously a feel for the game and what's working vs what's the defense giving you but............

I'd rather have 251 yards running and 249 yards passing than 34 pass plays vs 36 run plays. as far as balance is a goal.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #24 on: Today at 09:38:42 AM »
I remain impressed that the OC can call a play get it sent in and called by the QB in the time allowed.  I know they generally have 3-4-5 options called a play ahead of time depending on what happens, but it's still impressive, to me.


FearlessF

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #25 on: Today at 09:42:29 AM »
yup, talking to those that call plays.  It's tough.
Heck, these days many get the play in with 15-20 seconds on the 40 second clock
I miss the days when they huddled each time and we had time for a quick replay of the previous play.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #26 on: Today at 09:46:53 AM »
I'd be interested in seeing which kind of play is called to start the game in competitive games where OCs have laid out 3-4-5-6 plays in advance.  My GUESS is 80% of the first play is a run.

So, do defenses hedge that way to start a game?  I'd guess they lean forward.


847badgerfan

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Re: Optimal First Down Run/Pass Balance
« Reply #27 on: Today at 09:54:38 AM »
I miss guys like Jim McMahon, who would get a play call, ignore it, and do his own thing.
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