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Topic: Notre Dame and Conferences

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Cincydawg

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2023, 09:55:02 AM »
I don't agree about the stubborness factor, at all, it's illogical to me.  Maybe they are illogical.  Money trumps nearly anything else.

The reason I'd want them in my conference is money.  They reason they'd want in my conference is money.  Anything else is emotion.

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FearlessF

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2023, 10:02:16 AM »
emotion is almost always illogical
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2023, 10:08:07 AM »
Quote from: FearlessF on August 30, 2023, 10:02:16 AM
emotion is almost always illogical
Yes and that is kinda the point. 
Quote from: Cincydawg on August 30, 2023, 09:55:02 AM
I don't agree about the stubborness factor, at all, it's illogical to me.  Maybe they are illogical.  Money trumps nearly anything else.

The reason I'd want them in my conference is money.  They reason they'd want in my conference is money.  Anything else is emotion.
If logic (money) dictates that we should want them and logic (money) dictates that they should want us and yet it hasn't happened then, as Spock would say, the only logical conclusion is that something not based in logic is gumming up the gears. My argument is that the illogical "gum" IS stubbornness. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2023, 10:28:58 AM »
My point is that the money factor to date is not compelling.  My OP was about making it more compelling.

The ND PTBs may now believe they are doing just fine and don't need however much more money a conference might bring, if indeed it would bring more.  It's not stubborness, in my view, it's a monetary comparison that is wanting.  And there are some negatives associated with joining a conference for ND.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2023, 12:53:34 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on August 29, 2023, 10:43:24 PM
The playoff does offer inducement to be in a conference
Yes, in a 4 team playoff. No, in a 12 team playoff. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2023, 12:56:36 PM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on August 30, 2023, 12:53:34 PM
Yes, in a 4 team playoff. No, in a 12 team playoff.
I think it does in a 12 team playoff more than the current 4 team.  

If we presume ND is arrogant and prideful and stubborn and attaches "value" to being independent, that "value" can be exceeded with money.  Maybe the value they assign is say $10 million a year, if you make it $25 million, they suddenly recompute.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2023, 01:11:00 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on August 30, 2023, 12:56:36 PM
I think it does in a 12 team playoff more than the current 4 team. 

If we presume ND is arrogant and prideful and stubborn and attaches "value" to being independent, that "value" can be exceeded with money.  Maybe the value they assign is say $10 million a year, if you make it $25 million, they suddenly recompute.
I thought the idea was that the playoff induces them to join a conference because they might think it's necessary in order for them to get access to the playoff? I.e. that if there are four conference champions each at 12-1 or better, and ND at 11-1, the committee has to engage in some serious gymnastics to justify ND over the conference champs. ND pretty much has to go 12-0 to be a shoo-in because it's exceedingly rare you'd have 4x 13-0 conference champs. 

On the other hand, with a 12 team playoff, you have 6 conference champs (likely to get reduced to 5 now that the PAC is no longer a power conference), and 6 or soon to be 7 at-large picks. 11-1 ND is in. 10-2 ND is in. 9-3 ND might be in--you know the committee will try to justify it. 

So a larger playoff reduces the pressure on ND to join a conference, because they know they can get into the playoff with a lesser record than they would if it was 4 teams and they had no chance at being a conference champ b/c they aren't in a conference. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2023, 01:20:01 PM »
The first four have to be conference champs, and they get a bye, which is an advantage.  ND cannot be one of the four.

ND would be potentially only 5-12, never 1-4.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2023, 01:59:28 PM »
If I'm correct, the SEC and B1G will each be at 24 teams. Within each of them will be 4 divisions. They each play 5 divisional and 10 total conference games, a division final (8 teams included) and a CCG (4 teams included) to end the season.

The winners of the B1G and the SEC play for the trophy.

There is your 8-team playoff.

And F Notre Dame.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2023, 03:02:00 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on August 30, 2023, 01:59:28 PM
If I'm correct, the SEC and B1G will each be at 24 teams. Within each of them will be 4 divisions. They each play 5 divisional and 10 total conference games, a division final (8 teams included) and a CCG (4 teams included) to end the season.
I don't remember who proposed this here but if we are going to 24 teams (like you, I assume that we are) then I like this idea:
  • 3 OOC Games. 
  • 5 "divisional" games, playing each of the other teams in your six-team division once.
  • 3 non-divisional league games, playing one team each from each of the other three divisions in a rotation. 
  • All 24 teams play a ninth league game where hosting rotates among the divisions and the matchups are #1vs#1, #2vs#2 . . .#6vs#6.
  • The two #1vs#1 games are league semi-finals with the two winners advancing to a league CG.

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Cincydawg

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2023, 03:05:44 PM »
So, back in the day, a pretty great season for many teams was going to an NYD bowl game, winning your conference, even upsetting whoever ended up #1.

Now it'll be anything short of the NC will tend to be viewed as coming up short.  Two teams will win a CG of any import and one will win the NC.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2023, 03:23:15 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on August 30, 2023, 03:05:44 PM
So, back in the day, a pretty great season for many teams was going to an NYD bowl game, winning your conference, even upsetting whoever ended up #1.

Now it'll be anything short of the NC will tend to be viewed as coming up short.  Two teams will win a CG of any import and one will win the NC.
Been that way since 1998.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2023, 03:25:53 PM »
I took pleasure in winning the conference for a long time, anything more was gravy.  I also liked when they won a NYD bowl, even years later, but I'm starting not to view it that way of course, I guess I'm slow.

Imagine the Dawgs slip up against the Vols and don't even make Atlanta, at 11-1 they might still make the CFP.  More likely would be the Sugar Bowl, which would seem like a major disappointment to most fans.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Notre Dame and Conferences
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2023, 04:02:24 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on August 30, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
Been that way since 1998.
True, but not to the same extent as now.

When the BCS started in 1998 it was only two teams so there were still plenty of really good teams playing in Bowls that were NOT the BCSNCG. 

Playoff expansion is sucking all the oxygen out of the room. The year before last when Ohio State went to the RoseBowl it definitely "felt like" a consolation bowl but the Buckeyes were 10-2 and #6 and it was a high profile matchup at #11vs#6. 

Even with automatic bids when we expand to 12 there will almost never be a top-10 team in a non-CFP Bowl.

Finally, the recent practice of players sitting out non-CFP bowls adds to the "its just a exhibition, nobody cares" feeling. Anymore when I watch my team in a non-CFP bowl I'm more interested in seeing how next year's projected starters look than I am in seeing whether or not my team wins.
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