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Topic: NCAA

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2024, 03:42:47 PM »
Nothing?

Was it a crime to say TCU over UM was an upset?

In any universe, would UM have lost to UGA 65-7?

Why was TCU's loss to KSU in 2022 meaningless and they didn't drop 1 spot, yet UGA's loss to Bama in 2023 dropped them out completely?

Putting your head in the sand and pretending 12-0 is always better than 11-1 is childish.  Endlessly advocating for mid-majors with dogshit schedules to be included when they have no actual chance at winning it all is worse than the big, fat lie we previously had.  Now it's allowing them to try and climb the mountain, but with no tools and wearing flip-flops.  It's a joke.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #169 on: February 11, 2024, 05:23:20 PM »
Jeez. Not sure if you’re digging at Auburn or Florida. Haven’t met many Auburn alums of any major in my line of work. Is Auburn considered poor academically ?  I haven’t heard that.
I "think" Auburn affords an OK engineering degree.  Florida is ranked a lot higher overall.  I wouldn't say Auburn is "poor" academically.

I don't put too much emphasis on school academic rankings beyond the obvious.  But a few elite schools get noticed when on one's resume.  Some more look "pretty good", the UNCs and UVAs and Michigans and Cals of the publics.  

There isn't some magically solid way to pick teams for a 4 team or 12 team playoff.  My "notion" (which I don't think can really work) is to look at hypothetical Vegas lines, if you want the "best teams" by whatever metric.  Liberty Bibity.

MaximumSam

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #170 on: February 11, 2024, 06:24:16 PM »
Nothing?

Was it a crime to say TCU over UM was an upset?

In any universe, would UM have lost to UGA 65-7?

Why was TCU's loss to KSU in 2022 meaningless and they didn't drop 1 spot, yet UGA's loss to Bama in 2023 dropped them out completely?

Putting your head in the sand and pretending 12-0 is always better than 11-1 is childish.  Endlessly advocating for mid-majors with dogshit schedules to be included when they have no actual chance at winning it all is worse than the big, fat lie we previously had.  Now it's allowing them to try and climb the mountain, but with no tools and wearing flip-flops.  It's a joke.
Fro watching TCU make the national championship game



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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #171 on: February 11, 2024, 07:11:35 PM »
More like:  Georgia watching TCU beat UM

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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #172 on: February 11, 2024, 07:14:55 PM »
This is a separate thing I mentioned, but look at the absurd discrepancy between 22 and 23 (not involving FSU).

TCU is ranked 3, loses its CCG to a team ranked 13 and DID NOT MOVE DOWN.
Meanwhile,
UGA is ranked 1, loses its CCG to a team ranked 8 and DROPPED DOWN TO 6.
.
What is the point?!?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #173 on: February 11, 2024, 07:39:14 PM »
This is a separate thing I mentioned, but look at the absurd discrepancy between 22 and 23 (not involving FSU).

TCU is ranked 3, loses its CCG to a team ranked 13 and DID NOT MOVE DOWN.
Meanwhile,
UGA is ranked 1, loses its CCG to a team ranked 8 and DROPPED DOWN TO 6.
.
What is the point?!?
Bad luck is part of the deal when you have to pick 4 teams out of 130. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #174 on: February 11, 2024, 10:35:45 PM »
This is a separate thing I mentioned, but look at the absurd discrepancy between 22 and 23 (not involving FSU).

TCU is ranked 3, loses its CCG to a team ranked 13 and DID NOT MOVE DOWN.
Meanwhile,
UGA is ranked 1, loses its CCG to a team ranked 8 and DROPPED DOWN TO 6.
.
What is the point?!?
Understand that I agree with your underlying point but I don't think that this argument works.

The problem with this argument is that "best four teams" is inherently a relative question.

A perfect example is Ohio State the last two years. Both years Ohio State finished 11-1. Both years the loss was to a team that went 13-0, won the league, and went to the CFP. The Buckeyes' SoS was comparable.

Actually, 2023 Ohio State had a better resume because the 2022 loss was at home and by multiple scores while the 2023 loss was on the road by one score.

2023 Ohio State had a better CFP argument than 2022 Ohio State but that doesn't mean that 2023 Ohio State should have gone nor that 2022 Ohio State shouldn't have gone. 2022 Ohio State went because there weren't four better options, 2023 didn't go because there were four (actually six) better options.

The same applies to your issue with TCU not moving down for losing their CG in 2022 while UGA did move down for losing theirs in 2023. Look at who passed UGA when they lost the 2023 SECCG to finish 12-1 and NOT a Champion:


  • Three 13-0 P5 Champions
  • Two 12-1 P5 Chsmpions
When TCU lost the 2022 B12CG there were no 13-0 nor 12-1 P5 Champs available to pass them. Sure, they "deserved" to drop but there weren't any logical candidates to pass them.




Mdot21

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #175 on: February 12, 2024, 12:13:36 AM »
Alabama OC to the Seattle Seahawks of the NFL. Followed DeBoer and has been there all of a month if that.

Jedd Fisch reportedly just interviewed with UCLA. He's been the head coach at Washington for what, 2-3 weeks? Already interviewing for another job.

This sport is broken.

Cincydawg

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #176 on: February 12, 2024, 05:47:00 AM »
Rankings have to hinge on context, who else is available?  In some years, UGA could, and did,  lose in the CG and make it, but not last year.  TCU lost but there was not clear alternative that season.

FearlessF

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #177 on: February 12, 2024, 09:47:41 AM »
so, we understand the committee just makes decisions based on whatever suits them

similar to a few old men in sports jackets with booze and cigars in a back room in the 60s and 70s
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Cincydawg

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #178 on: February 12, 2024, 09:51:41 AM »
I can see some "logic" in their decisions even if I might choose differently.  I can't think of an egregious selection or omission in the past, just some that could have been otherwise (often more evident after the fact).  What's the worst choice they ever made?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #179 on: February 12, 2024, 10:52:21 AM »
I can see some "logic" in their decisions even if I might choose differently.  I can't think of an egregious selection or omission in the past, just some that could have been otherwise (often more evident after the fact).  What's the worst choice they ever made?
I agree with this.  

If you go through their decisions and look at the annual controversies:
2014:
A lot of people will argue that tOSU got in over TCU/Baylor due to "helmet".  My argument is that you can see the logic behind this WITHOUT resorting to "helmet".  The B12 didn't have a CG which hurt their top teams' SoS relative to tOSU because at the end of the year Ohio State played an extra game against a really good Wisconsin team.  That gave tOSU a SoS edge over either TCU or Baylor.  The bigger problem for the B12 teams was that their league declared Baylor to be the Champion based on their H2H win over TCU.  I think the committee felt bound by that and league titles are one of the listed factors they are to consider so I think they felt bound to "credit" Baylor with the B12 Title and thus put them ahead of TCU.  The reason that was a problem was because if you compare TCU to tOSU it is a close call.  TCU has a better win against a common opponent (Minnesota) and a MUCH better loss but doesn't have as good of wins and has a slightly weaker schedule.  I don't think the committee ever made that comparison, it wasn't relevant.  Baylor was the B12 Champion and Ohio State was the B1G Champion so those two were compared and that is no comparison.  Ohio State wins that resume contest EASILY.  Baylor had an equivalent loss and a MUCH weaker SoS.  

2015:
I'd have loved to see my Defending National Champion Buckeyes in but they weren't a league Champion so what arguments can even be made here?  I could see @OrangeAfroMan arguing that tOSU was "better" than MSU but the fact that they lost to them at home kinda kiboshes that argument even though I think they were.  

2016:
Penn State's argument here is that they beat the Buckeyes H2H and won the B1G but they also lost to a mediocre Pitt team and got absolutely obliterated by a Michigan team that tOSU beat.  Even if you don't agree that this should be the criteria, it is pretty hard to disagree with the argument that tOSU's overall resume was better than PSU's since PSU's losses were both worse and more numerous.  

2017:
The argument here would be for an 11-2 B1G Champion Ohio State team over an 11-1 Alabama team that missed the SECCG.  If you think league titles are the end-all-be-all, then that is the end of it, tOSU should be in and Bama out.  However, there is a pretty clear logical argument that Bama's overall resume with their one loss to a very good Auburn team on the road was better than tOSU's overall resume with a similar loss to Oklahoma (only that was at home) and a blowout loss to a mediocre Iowa team.  

2018:
I see this as possibly the least controversial of the selections.  Bama, Clemson, and ND were all undefeated and obvious selections.  After that, Oklahoma and tOSU were both 12-1 P5 Champs but that was a pretty easy decision since Oklahoma's loss was close, at a neutral site, to a great team, and subsequently avenged in their CG while tOSU's loss was not close, nor to a great team, not subsequently avenged.  

2019:
This was probably the least controversial selection of the entire 4-team CFP era.  LSU, tOSU, and Clemson were all undefeated P5 Champs while Oklahoma was a 12-1 P5 Champ.  The next best argument was for a 2-loss team and that argument wouldn't be very good.  

2020:
The best argument for a team that didn't make it would be for aTm.  The argument is that they only lost once and that their loss was to a REALLY good team and on the road.  All that is true, but they also got drilled.  It isn't like they lost by a FG in Tuscaloosa, they lost by four TD's.  

2021:
I think that including Cincy was a joke and I know Fro agrees but the problem is that the next best team was Notre Dame and Notre Dame lost at home to Cincy.  

2022:
I generally agree with Fro's view of the TCU team that got in but the argument for taking them over a team with more losses that didn't make a CG is pretty obvious.  

2023:
There is obviously an argument for 13-0 FSU but the argument against them is that they were a different team without their QB and their SoS even with the OOC game against LSU was shaky because the ACC was garbage.  You don't have to agree with it to see that argument.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #180 on: February 12, 2024, 12:32:20 PM »
Nothing?

Was it a crime to say TCU over UM was an upset?

In any universe, would UM have lost to UGA 65-7?

Why was TCU's loss to KSU in 2022 meaningless and they didn't drop 1 spot, yet UGA's loss to Bama in 2023 dropped them out completely?

Putting your head in the sand and pretending 12-0 is always better than 11-1 is childish.  Endlessly advocating for mid-majors with dogshit schedules to be included when they have no actual chance at winning it all is worse than the big, fat lie we previously had.  Now it's allowing them to try and climb the mountain, but with no tools and wearing flip-flops.  It's a joke.
I don't think that you'd put an 8-4 USC team into the CFP over an 11-1 Iowa team, no.

But I think you'd not hesitate one bit to consider that Iowa team unworthy, to gloat when they get stomped in a CFP game, and to refer to the outcome with disgust, as you often do in these arguments with responses like "Ew" and "Gross". 

I mean, doesn't this very reply above suggest that despite TCU actually winning a damn game, you view them as unworthy and don't think they should have been there at all? 

  • TCU: "Ew. Gross"
  • Mid-majors: "Ew. Gross."
  • 13-0 FSU who had lost their QB: "Ew. Gross."
  • 2015 MSU who gets stomped: "Ew. Gross."

Who doesn't get your ire? The elite of the elite shiny helmet teams. Particularly if they're in the SEC. 


This is a separate thing I mentioned, but look at the absurd discrepancy between 22 and 23 (not involving FSU).

TCU is ranked 3, loses its CCG to a team ranked 13 and DID NOT MOVE DOWN.
Meanwhile,
UGA is ranked 1, loses its CCG to a team ranked 8 and DROPPED DOWN TO 6.
.
What is the point?!?

The point is that it's all "eye test". And your "eye test" is going to be more dominated by talent/recruiting, which is dominated by helmet team status, which is another way of saying that if a non-elite team ever even gets into the playoff: "Ew. Gross."

Yeah, you might not take a team with STARZ who finished 8-4 and let them in. But that doesn't mean you ever want to see a team without STARZ because you think they just don't belong. 

bayareabadger

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Re: NCAA
« Reply #181 on: February 12, 2024, 02:39:55 PM »
This is a separate thing I mentioned, but look at the absurd discrepancy between 22 and 23 (not involving FSU).

TCU is ranked 3, loses its CCG to a team ranked 13 and DID NOT MOVE DOWN.
Meanwhile,
UGA is ranked 1, loses its CCG to a team ranked 8 and DROPPED DOWN TO 6.
.
What is the point?!?
Demanding that polls reflect wins and losses in this way is part of the reason polls are deeply useless, other than excuses to get angry about nothing.

Any poll that’s actually coherent about either resume or quality of teams is going to have moves that are wonky. And when every poll but the last one is pure entertainment content, getting revved up about spots fallen is basically just saying “I want to be mad because I enjoy it.”

Rankings can only align with one baseline goal and they rest is going to be wonky. That’s how it works in the best case. Welcome to the reality of this.

 

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