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Topic: A Sub Below

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medinabuckeye1

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A Sub Below
« on: June 22, 2023, 09:57:52 AM »
We had some discussion of this in the "In Other News" thread but it quickly got lost in the endless political disputes so I'm making a new thread for it.

Apparently they are going to run out of oxygen this morning if they didn't already die of hypothermia so the five people aboard are probably not going to be rescued.

I watched this from CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/06/21/exp-titanic-submersible-marquet-live-062103pseg1-cnni-world.cnn

I was thinking the same thing. It seems EXTREMELY unlikely that the sub has EXACTLY neutral buoyancy so, as this expert says, it is either on the bottom or at the surface.

Another buoyancy issue:
I assume this would happen with carbon fiber just like steel but I could be wrong. I know from being a history buff that WWII submarines had buoyancy issues particularly at extreme depths. Extreme for them basically meant anything more than about 300'. The issue was that as depth increased, pressure increased which caused the subs to get somewhat smaller.

The submarine's weight did not change but their displacement decreased slightly as they decended so if they had exactly neutral buoyancy just below the surface they'd have slightly negative buoyancy at say 300'.

This is a problem both ways because it tends to accelerate both your dives and your climbs.

WWII Submarines had a solution that also acted as an emergency method to surface, this was compressed air. According to this handy-dandy water pressure at depth calculator that I just found, pressure at 600 ft is 266.26 psi. Thus, air compressed at a pressure greater than 266.26 psi can be used to displace the water in the trim and/or ballast tanks and force the submarine to the surface.

https://bluerobotics.com/learn/pressure-depth-calculator/

The problem is that at 12,000 ft (approx depth of Titanic), the pressure is 5,325.1 psi. Standard body shop air compressors operate at 250+ psi so I'm sure that WWII Submarines had at least 300 psi and probably more but 5,000+ psi is a completely different world.

Without compressed air as a safety you are pretty much screwed if you lose power.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 10:16:51 AM by medinabuckeye1 »
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847badgerfan

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Re: Missing Titanic Tourist Submarine
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2023, 10:06:26 AM »
I'd like to know how this business was allowed to operate with such a lack of safety measures.

To be a fishing charter captain and operate a vessel, there are regulations that must be followed.

To be an air pilot for hire, there are regulations that must be followed.

Even a limo driver.
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bayareabadger

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Re: Missing Titanic Tourist Submarine
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2023, 10:12:40 AM »
Petition to change the thread title to "A sub below" in homage to the old Subway ad. 
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Missing Titanic Tourist Submarine
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2023, 10:16:09 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 22, 2023, 10:06:26 AM
I'd like to know how this business was allowed to operate with such a lack of safety measures.

To be a fishing charter captain and operate a vessel, there are regulations that must be followed.

To be an air pilot for hire, there are regulations that must be followed.

Even a limo driver.
I noticed that you raised this issue earlier but it got lost in political debates.

It is a good point and my best guess is that it is probably a combination of two factors:
  • New technology: Regulations haven't caught up with Submarines that can (or at least almost could) dive to 12,000'
  • International Waters: What nation's regulations would even apply?
I can't remember where, might have been Key West, but I've seen commercial submarine rides offered. However these were well within US waters so US regulations would obviously apply and the depths were, IIRC, something like 30-50'.

Diving 12,000+ feet in International Waters is just completely different.

Rescue operations are also completely different. If a coral/fish submarine sank in 30-50' it wouldn't be all that difficult to raise it. Anybody SCUBA certified could go down there and hook a cable to them.

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Temp430

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2023, 10:24:38 AM »
The outfit operating these deep sea dives should have it's own deep sea rescue capability on site in advance.  With this submersible I'm not sure how that would work since it does not have hard lift or attach points which is why it uses a sled to get in and out of the water.
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847badgerfan

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2023, 10:33:27 AM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on June 22, 2023, 10:16:09 AM
I noticed that you raised this issue earlier but it got lost in political debates.

It is a good point and my best guess is that it is probably a combination of two factors:
  • New technology: Regulations haven't caught up with Submarines that can (or at least almost could) dive to 12,000'
  • International Waters: What nation's regulations would even apply?
I can't remember where, might have been Key West, but I've seen commercial submarine rides offered. However these were well within US waters so US regulations would obviously apply and the depths were, IIRC, something like 30-50'.

Diving 12,000+ feet in International Waters is just completely different.

Rescue operations are also completely different. If a coral/fish submarine sank in 30-50' it wouldn't be all that difficult to raise it. Anybody SCUBA certified could go down there and hook a cable to them.


It depends on where it debarks. International Maritime Law could also come into play, but I'm unsure of how it would.
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847badgerfan

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2023, 10:37:00 AM »
He thinks they are relaxed??

**********************************

Guillermo Söhnlein founded OceanGate with Rush in 2009 to offer pricey deep-sea tours to the extremely wealthy in manned submersibles capable of diving up to 13,123 feet. Söhnlein left the company in 2013, turning it over to Rush and reducing his role to a minority shareholder, but the two have kept in touch and last spoke a couple of weeks before the ill-fated Titanic expedition. 

In a statement posted on Facebook, Söhnlein broke his silence about the missing crew and encouraged the public and the media to remain hopeful for the crew's rescue and avoid speculation about what happened.
"For the past three days, I have watched from afar as hundreds of dedicated professionals worked tirelessly to find and rescue the crew of the research submersible, Titan, with which communication was lost during its science expedition to the wreck of the Titanic. The pilot is my co-founder and friend, Stockton Rush," Söhnlein wrote.


"Today will be a critical day in this search and rescue mission, as the sub's life support supplies are starting to run low. I'm certain that Stockton and the rest of the crew realized days ago that the best thing they can do to ensure their rescue is to extend the limits of those supplies by relaxing as much as possible. I firmly believe that the time window available for their rescue is longer than what most people think," he said.

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2023, 10:42:49 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 22, 2023, 10:37:00 AM
He thinks they are relaxed??

**********************************

Guillermo Söhnlein founded OceanGate with Rush in 2009 to offer pricey deep-sea tours to the extremely wealthy in manned submersibles capable of diving up to 13,123 feet. Söhnlein left the company in 2013, turning it over to Rush and reducing his role to a minority shareholder, but the two have kept in touch and last spoke a couple of weeks before the ill-fated Titanic expedition.

In a statement posted on Facebook, Söhnlein broke his silence about the missing crew and encouraged the public and the media to remain hopeful for the crew's rescue and avoid speculation about what happened.
"For the past three days, I have watched from afar as hundreds of dedicated professionals worked tirelessly to find and rescue the crew of the research submersible, Titan, with which communication was lost during its science expedition to the wreck of the Titanic. The pilot is my co-founder and friend, Stockton Rush," Söhnlein wrote.


"Today will be a critical day in this search and rescue mission, as the sub's life support supplies are starting to run low. I'm certain that Stockton and the rest of the crew realized days ago that the best thing they can do to ensure their rescue is to extend the limits of those supplies by relaxing as much as possible. I firmly believe that the time window available for their rescue is longer than what most people think," he said.
I agree with your incredulousness. We all know that the best thing to do would be to go to sleep because you'd use oxygen more slowly but who could actually do that?

On that note, what are the chances that one of the five figured out that they alone would use less oxygen than five people and killed the other four to preserve their own life a bit longer?
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847badgerfan

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2023, 10:48:31 AM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on June 22, 2023, 10:42:49 AM
I agree with your incredulousness. We all know that the best thing to do would be to go to sleep because you'd use oxygen more slowly but who could actually do that?

On that note, what are the chances that one of the five figured out that they alone would use less oxygen than five people and killed the other four to preserve their own life a bit longer?
I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2023, 10:52:43 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 22, 2023, 10:48:31 AM
I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?
No idea but here is an article addressing your earlier question:
https://www.insider.com/titanic-sub-avoided-safety-rules-by-diving-in-international-waters-experts-2023-6?amp
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MaximumSam

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2023, 10:54:58 AM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on June 22, 2023, 10:12:40 AM
Petition to change the thread title to "A sub below" in homage to the old Subway ad.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2023, 11:05:03 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 22, 2023, 10:48:31 AM
I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?
It may be more likely that the father/son duo would have done it if anyone. 
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Drew4UTk

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2023, 12:21:28 PM »
I'm tweaked by all the attention given to the "$30 Xbox controller" used... 

That device is used in all kinds of motion control applications... apparently this is not known?  

As a for instance, there is a five axis cnc that is something like 100'x80' with a z travel of 50' - I don't recall the precise dimensions but it's something like this... it is a trolley style machine with rails like a train rolls on- the "bed" is a single pour concrete structure with just about unmeasureable deviation over its (flat) surface.  These people make around half a dozen runs cutting/routing/and using additive manufacturing from the same device before actually making the piece they're paid to make... it takes over a year from start to finish and a part has tolerances at that scale of surgical instruments... and its controlled from the actual "cut" room with a freakin gaming controller.  The control room has a wall of scientific instruments to measure and gauge just about every aspect, but the "jogging" and rapid moves and positioning that happen on the floor is all that little controller.  
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: A Sub Below
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2023, 12:25:41 PM »
Uggh.  Debris found in wreckage search area.  Not sure if it connected.  
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