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Topic: In other news ...

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29232 on: March 04, 2024, 04:30:01 PM »
the 7 to 0 vote from SCOTUS speaks volumes IMHO

wonder why the other 2 justices didnt vote
It was 9-0. 

BTW you can read the court opinion, Barrett's concurrence, and Sotomayor/Kagan/Jackson's concurrence here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-719_19m2.pdf

It's 20 pages in total, so nothing too crazy. I'm going to get to it a little later today (or tomorrow AM if I can't today)...

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29233 on: March 04, 2024, 04:56:56 PM »
It was 9-0.

BTW you can read the court opinion, Barrett's concurrence, and Sotomayor/Kagan/Jackson's concurrence here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-719_19m2.pdf

It's 20 pages in total, so nothing too crazy. I'm going to get to it a little later today (or tomorrow AM if I can't today)...
Ill pass but thanks just the same
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utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29234 on: March 04, 2024, 06:13:07 PM »
It's an interesting legal question. The counterargument would be that the states are not barring anyone from Federal office--they're barring them from the ballot in their own. States are allowed to conduct their own elections, and make their own qualification criteria for putting someone on a ballot. You see this all the time with third party Presidential candidates--most don't make it onto all 50 state ballots
most don't make it onto all 50 state ballots, with perhaps the Libertarian and Green parties, regularly or coming closest. 

So you could make an argument that the states themselves should be the one who determine whether someone participated in an insurrection. They can't bar someone from Federal office (that would violate the supremacy clause as I believe SCOTUS alleged), but MAYBE could be enough to allow them to bar someone from the ballot in their own state.

To me it was all a bit of a mess, because any state that would have the balls to remove that particular candidate from the ballot was a state that he had no chance to win, so it wouldn't meaningfully affect the outcome of anything except the popular vote.


Yeah I don't really have a problem with a state deciding who can and can not be on its ballot.  

In this case, as you point out, it makes no difference, because we all know how the state in question is going to vote anyway.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29235 on: March 04, 2024, 06:16:33 PM »

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29236 on: March 04, 2024, 06:20:37 PM »
I think there should be some level of due process for removing a candidate, not just a decision by a single person, or small group, but due process.  If a person is convicted of a felony, fine with me.  If they just said mean things, well, no.


Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29237 on: March 04, 2024, 06:37:45 PM »
=AZWBoJ84VqMp-SIr9l0N6YUixqVieqiBuOrmUu6LZolgBoMobrBsf8gcIop5LgHrMHoAoUgUHqwlX3dtel461k8gVCUwI7gtE3DDIWv3i3E3-DUzdgJk8JS2cy7otmDvx_FE3NeJn2c5S-u8nc5JFdan3uiomvBvSPGPlAIvhKXg70c8ui5XRQGs1XB2y0-XUvk&__tn__=-UC%2CP-R"][color=var(--primary-text)]Wall Street Journal Opinion[/iurl] [/color][/size][/color]
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=AZWBoJ84VqMp-SIr9l0N6YUixqVieqiBuOrmUu6LZolgBoMobrBsf8gcIop5LgHrMHoAoUgUHqwlX3dtel461k8gVCUwI7gtE3DDIWv3i3E3-DUzdgJk8JS2cy7otmDvx_FE3NeJn2c5S-u8nc5JFdan3uiomvBvSPGPlAIvhKXg70c8ui5XRQGs1XB2y0-XUvk&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R"]  ยท 
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[color=var(--primary-text)]If supporting Ukraine is expensive, the cost of failing to do so will be much higher, writes Maia Sandu[/font][/font][/size][/color]




betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29238 on: March 04, 2024, 07:04:25 PM »
I think there should be some level of due process for removing a candidate, not just a decision by a single person, or small group, but due process.  If a person is convicted of a felony, fine with me.  If they just said mean things, well, no.
Colorado voters (interestingly, brought by four Republican voters and two unaffiliated) filed a petition, effectively suing, the Colorado State government and naming the Colorado Secretary of State in the proceedings. The matter was heard by a District Court who, after 5 days of trial, said that Trump engaged in an insurrection but that he was not named as an "officer" under the United States because the office of the Presidency was not named in the 14th Amendment. The matter was appealed (I think, I'm not sure exactly how it ended up in front of the Colorado Supreme Court), and Colorado SC reversed the decision and ordered him removed from the ballot (with the order stayed pending SCOTUS review). 

So, two questions...

  • The matter was brought in a legal fashion, went through a Colorado District Court, found a decision after a 5-day trial, was appealed or somehow came before the Colorado Supreme Court, and was reversed upon decision of a more powerful court. Is this not due process? This wasn't a decision made by one person on a whim. It was a legal suit, learned judges made a decision based on their understanding of the facts and the law, and rendered an order enforcing their decision.
  • Had SCOTUS affirmed, rather than overruled, the Colorado Supreme Court, would that in any way have changed your opinion that the actions of the Colorado District Court and Colorado Supreme Court were sufficient to be "due process"?




betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29239 on: March 04, 2024, 07:37:41 PM »
Okay... So I've read the opinion and the concurring opinions... Allow me to summarize:

  • The five conservatives (minus Barrett): We need an opinion that keeps Trump on ballots. We're going to create one. And then we're going to go one step farther and say that only Congress can stop Trump from holding office, because there's a chance he'll be convicted in Federal court for being an insurrectionist. If he is, then we can rely on a Congressional requirement for enforcing the 14th Amendment Section 3 to forestall any reason to get rid of Trump if he's convicted.
  • The three liberals: We have to support federal power supremacy over the states, because the entire idea of "states' rights" is anathema to us. So we have to say a State can't remove a Federal candidate from a ballot. But the majority goes too far because they're clearly doing whatever they can to prop up their future decisions keeping Trump in power even if he's freakin' convicted of being an insurrectionist.
  • Amy Coney Barrett: Hey, did y'all know I'm a Supreme Court Justice? I wrote a two paragraph concurrence to remind y'all. It was kinda all about how we as a Court agreed on some stuff but disagreed on others, but we're all a big happy family, y'all!

So that's my take in short.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29240 on: March 04, 2024, 08:07:14 PM »
I think of due process as including both sides, maybe they did.  

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29241 on: March 04, 2024, 08:41:12 PM »
damn it
you should be happy this happened and not saying damn it, as some small measure of fairness/justice/whatever you want to call it was served and order restored in these times of utter insanity

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29242 on: March 04, 2024, 08:42:14 PM »
yup, I understand the issue

I just wish there was a way to keep both of them off the ballot

obviously the parties they represent aren't willing to do it for the sake of the country or their own party
there is a way to keep both of them off....which is why we have these things called primaries....someone in their respective parties has to beat them at the ballot box. 

unfortunately the democratic party is nothing but a sewer of filth and wouldn't allow for even a split second a challenger to President Shits-his-Diapers and the major donors and establishment wing of the republican party have tried everything in their power to get anyone else but Trump and all they could muster was someone as daft and unimpressive as Nikki fcking Haley....

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29243 on: March 04, 2024, 08:43:15 PM »
A thing about allowing a state to remove someone from a ballot without some kind of "due process" would worry me.  It was too subjective for my tastes, and I could see states removing a candidate basically because they didn't like him/her without any conviction or finding or legislative action.

I can see it if a person was convicted of a felony or impeached and found guilty.
+1. exactly this. 

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29244 on: March 04, 2024, 08:43:55 PM »
My understanding is that SCOTUS ruled as it did because a state has no authority under the amendment they based their opinion on to affect a federal election but only state elections due process or no due process
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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #29245 on: March 04, 2024, 08:45:59 PM »
establishment wing of the republican party have tried everything in their power to get anyone else but Trump and all they could muster was someone as daft and unimpressive as Nikki fcking Haley....
gotta be smarter than that
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