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Let's find a way to get poor people's needs and wants taken care of so that they can begin to put their energies into some important, peripheral aspects of their lives.

I was thinking more about this last, important point of a previous post.

Way back when, you could simply go out into the world and live.  You could create your own home, grow and hunt your own food.  It was a big, wide open world.

Then we settled the whole country and chopped up the land into parcels and now everywhere belongs to someone.  You can't go out and make your own way like before. 
With this total land ownership, everyone was then automatically opted-in to a system where money matters most.

Our system requires (for the most part) that you do well in school when you're a young person.  Education isn't valued in your home?  Tough shit.  You lose.  You'll still work hard, likely harder than those who did well in school.  You'll work harder and for less money until you die.

If we're all opted into a system in which a certain amount of money is required to live, then that should be the minimum everyone has or starts from.
I think it's the best case for UBI.  Just get people to a financial level that they're able to care about wearing condoms and caring about their neighbors and instilling a value for education in one's children.

This has nothing to do with ethics or a lack thereof.  Plenty of great people are poor and work hard.  Even if they try to emphasize education to their children, the lack of evidence in their daily lives makes it a hard message to believe.

I don't think it's "due to a rise in atheism" but it is almost certainly due to a "decrease in strict adherence to religious norms." 

Functionally, I don't think one attributed cause is any different than the other.

This, exactly.

It isn't so much a micro issue of individual religiosity, it is a macro/cultural issue. Our culture used to insist, largely for religious reasons, that premarital sex was wrong. Now our culture is MUCH less religious and no longer makes that assertion.

Aa it turns out that change had no real bearing among the upper classes. Your anecdote above matches the data. Future Plastic Surgeons are smart enough such that the cultural guidance was unnecessary as demonstrated by the fact that white women with college degrees are almost always (93%) married when they have children.

HS dropouts, OTOH, DID need that guidance. We stopped providing it and now white, hispanic, and black HS dropouts are unmarried when having children 59%, 61%, and 82% of the time.

Went to a HS football game tonight.   Very little has changed in terms of the social experience in my 4 decades of going. 

Kids running around the perimeter,   side games of catch.  Social moms dressed to impress.   Intense Dads watching along the fence at field level.  One team always fielding a God awful kicker somehow.

I'd say 90% of middle/high school Kids wear all white sneakers these days.  

2 - poor people don't give a shit about anything but their next x-minutes of life.

My hypothesis for number 2 is that when your needs aren't met/are up in the air you drop all of the other peripheral stuff.  All of it.
They don't plan.  Because they're inherently poor planners?  No, because they have so little in their lives that is enduring/consistent that planning is a perceived waste of time.

The causation arrow is actually a pretty important question. Are they poor planners because they are poor or are they poor because they are poor planners?

Frankly, I think you are absolutely wrong on this. @utee94 's future Plastic Surgeon was ALWAYS pretty good at planning. That is why she didn't get herself knocked up and it is also part of the reason she expended the time and effort to become a Plastic Surgeon.

The ones who are even remotely decent at planning aren't in the poor areas because they got themselves out.

Aside from that, sorry, if the effective 2-parent household relies on believing in the invisible man in the sky, no thanks.

I said from the beginning that for the sake of discussion I'll meet on your terms and just assume that religion isn't real and yet you still feel the need to repeatedly demean every believer with your "invisible man in the sky" comments.

Whatever.

My point is that even under the assumption that you are right, we've effectively thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

As I explained it metaphorically, even though the witch from Hansel and Gretl isn't real, we still don't want four year olds running off into the woods. Similarly, even if the "sin" of premarital sex isn't real, we still are worse off as a society with single parents raising kids.

The causation arrow is actually a pretty important question. Are they poor planners because they are poor or are they poor because they are poor planners?

Frankly, I think you are absolutely wrong on this. @utee94 's future Plastic Surgeon was ALWAYS pretty good at planning. That is why she didn't get herself knocked up and it is also part of the reason she expended the time and effort to become a Plastic Surgeon.

The ones who are even remotely decent at planning aren't in the poor areas because they got themselves out.I said from the beginning that for the sake of discussion I'll meet on your terms and just assume that religion isn't real and yet you still feel the need to repeatedly demean every believer with your "invisible man in the sky" comments.

Whatever.

My point is that even under the assumption that you are right, we've effectively thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

As I explained it metaphorically, even though the witch from Hansel and Gretl isn't real, we still don't want four year olds running off into the woods. Similarly, even if the "sin" of premarital sex isn't real, we still are worse off as a society with single parents raising kids.

The plastic surgeon likely had 2 college grads for parents modeling planning.  But you miss the point - it's not about being a good planner or not, it's that poor people don't feel they have the luxury of planning.  It's the same reason they don't have stamp collections or let another car in ahead of them in traffic.  They live in the now because either they have to or feel they have to.

Premarital sex doesn't cause single mothers, unprotected sex does.  

And I'm not demeaning anyone.  I'm demeaning an absurd idea.  Myths are simply past religions.  At some point, the masses won't require them.  

I was thinking more about this last, important point of a previous post.

Way back when, you could simply go out into the world and live.  You could create your own home, grow and hunt your own food.  It was a big, wide open world.

Then we settled the whole country and chopped up the land into parcels and now everywhere belongs to someone.  You can't go out and make your own way like before. 
With this total land ownership, everyone was then automatically opted-in to a system where money matters most.

Our system requires (for the most part) that you do well in school when you're a young person.  Education isn't valued in your home?  Tough shit.  You lose.  You'll still work hard, likely harder than those who did well in school.  You'll work harder and for less money until you die.

If we're all opted into a system in which a certain amount of money is required to live, then that should be the minimum everyone has or starts from.
I think it's the best case for UBI.  Just get people to a financial level that they're able to care about wearing condoms and caring about their neighbors and instilling a value for education in one's children.

This has nothing to do with ethics or a lack thereof.  Plenty of great people are poor and work hard.  Even if they try to emphasize education to their children, the lack of evidence in their daily lives makes it a hard message to believe.

This posted upthread somehow, but it's my latest post.  

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