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Topic: In other news ...

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bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25046 on: July 01, 2023, 09:50:43 AM »
A recently passed bill in Michigan could make it a felony to intimidate someone by intentionally using the wrong gender pronouns, according to some legal experts.

It seems unenforcable to me, and pointless.  How can one discern one's intentions?
It's part of hate crime laws, which end up being a blend of ineffectual virtue signaling and protections for cops. 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25047 on: July 01, 2023, 09:56:00 AM »
It's part of hate crime laws, which end up being a blend of ineffectual virtue signaling and protections for cops.
Nicely stated.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25048 on: July 01, 2023, 10:22:42 AM »
  Terry Gross had one that often was pretty interesting on NPR.  She had Chuck Yeager on one time.
NPRs linup on saturday was fantastic most of the shows are gone now. Car Talk was the funniest shyt i ever heard and infomative also. To anyone who ever popped a hood or crawled under a car Gold Jerry Gold.Wait-Wait Don't Tell Me was good, Prarie Home Companion saturday night I kicked back and listen to it. They had a 2 hr show after that Folk Alley great music that hardlt got played on the radio. Sort of like Austin City Limits on PBS TV
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25049 on: July 01, 2023, 10:26:30 AM »
So, the headline is "Michigan House passes bill that could make using wrong pronouns a felony, fineable up to $10,000." And that conclusion is a stretch of speculation.

I pulled up the actual law. It's a hate crime bill. It mostly deals with actual violence or destruction of property, enhancing punishments if you're nakedly carrying it out in a targeted manner. The only route by which using the wrong pronouns is a felony is if you're already assaulting or intimidating someone or damaging their property, and you'll have to make clear you're doing it becuase you don't like them for their gender whatnot. The bar for "intimidation" is not exactly low in a country with free speech protections.

I think it's a plenty stupid law, but you have to be a bit of a bad actor to imply that it's gonna make using the wrong pronouns a felony. It's an addendum to an older law, that covered race, religion, gender or ethnic origin. Michigan wasn't arresting folks who called other people slurs for felonies, so we're probably safe here.

Here's the law: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ng5w0xum1idje3hlh02qam5b))/documents/2023-2024/billcurrentversion/House/PDF/2023-HCVBS-4474-0O3311.pdf
I read it as well. I believe you are mistaken- the new part is “ Intimidation”.  And it is defined by the standard “ if a reasonable person” feels threatened. Penalties are certainly ( potentially) more harsh if there is some aspect of violence or property damage.

What I find interesting is that you feel THE ARTICLE is what is sensationalism.  Yet you admit the law is ineffective virtue signaling. 

so - in your eyes a “stupid law” which is ineffective virtue signaling is about to be signed - but the FACTUAL ( everything in the article is 100% true an accurate including numerous quotes taken directly from the Bill) reporting of it is sensationalism. 

It seems obvious that the law is the real sensationalism. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25050 on: July 01, 2023, 10:34:24 AM »
The saddest part in all this is "we" need laws to tell us to be nice to each other.
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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25051 on: July 01, 2023, 10:50:16 AM »
already plenty of laws on the books telling us to be nice
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Honestbuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25052 on: July 01, 2023, 10:58:12 AM »
You can’t legislate brotherly love.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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847badgerfan

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U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Honestbuckeye

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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25055 on: July 01, 2023, 02:04:00 PM »
I read it as well. I believe you are mistaken- the new part is “ Intimidation”.  And it is defined by the standard “ if a reasonable person” feels threatened. Penalties are certainly ( potentially) more harsh if there is some aspect of violence or property damage.

What I find interesting is that you feel THE ARTICLE is what is sensationalism.  Yet you admit the law is ineffective virtue signaling. 

so - in your eyes a “stupid law” which is ineffective virtue signaling is about to be signed - but the FACTUAL ( everything in the article is 100% true an accurate including numerous quotes taken directly from the Bill) reporting of it is sensationalism. 

It seems obvious that the law is the real sensationalism. 

To the first part: That law has functionally been on the books for a while, just not applying to that group. We have not not seen a rash of prosecutions to this end. This is in part because the standard for "intimidation" is regularly high in our legal system, in part because of our generous speech protections. 

And yes, it is sensationalism. When you take a very unlikely outcome (basically impossible if you're just using the wrong pronouns), and and attach it to a punishment that's functionally impossibly to get, then make it a big blaring headline about how scary it all is. That would be sensationalism. If the headline read, "Michigan passes dumb, ineffectual law," not particularly sensationalized. 

It's a fact that if you move to Florida, speeding could mean 5 years in prison. That's a real life fact. None the less, we are all grown ups and know it doesn't work that way. Translate that to this. Bad law, less for the gender part and more for the whole structure, sensational and misleading headline. 

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25056 on: July 01, 2023, 02:31:17 PM »
To the first part: That law has functionally been on the books for a while, just not applying to that group. We have not not seen a rash of prosecutions to this end. This is in part because the standard for "intimidation" is regularly high in our legal system, in part because of our generous speech protections.

And yes, it is sensationalism. When you take a very unlikely outcome (basically impossible if you're just using the wrong pronouns), and and attach it to a punishment that's functionally impossibly to get, then make it a big blaring headline about how scary it all is. That would be sensationalism. If the headline read, "Michigan passes dumb, ineffectual law," not particularly sensationalized.

It's a fact that if you move to Florida, speeding could mean 5 years in prison. That's a real life fact. None the less, we are all grown ups and know it doesn't work that way. Translate that to this. Bad law, less for the gender part and more for the whole structure, sensational and misleading headline.
The point is not whether the law can be enforced or the fact that some of the law was already on the books

The point is that pronouns are even mentioned

basically connecting use of pronouns to hate speech

this is way over the top and should not be in this bill
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25057 on: July 01, 2023, 02:38:22 PM »
The point is not whether the law can be enforced or the fact that some of the law was already on the books

The point is that pronouns are even mentioned

basically connecting use of pronouns to hate speech

this is way over the top and should not be in this bill
Fortunately, they are not mentioned at all in the bill.

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25058 on: July 01, 2023, 02:49:58 PM »
Fortunately, they are not mentioned at all in the bill.
Gender identity or expression is used in the law 

pronoun usage would be a possible violation of this provision

They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

MaximumSam

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #25059 on: July 01, 2023, 03:20:50 PM »
Gender identity or expression is used in the law

pronoun usage would be a possible violation of this provision
Riparian rights are also in the law. Be careful not to overwater your lawn or else you might run afoul of this bill.

 

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