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Topic: In other news ...

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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24850 on: June 22, 2023, 09:37:50 PM »
we certainly have propped up evil dictatorships to deter potential enemies
I'd say that has nothing to do with being a deterrent to potential enemies, more to do with exploitation of natural resources (see Iran, 1953), access to natural resources/markets, or striking deals that are highly valuable and economically favorable to US (see Saudis, 1971).

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24851 on: June 22, 2023, 09:39:56 PM »
well, when you prop up one evil dictator so that a commie government can't take power............
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24852 on: June 23, 2023, 04:55:00 AM »


And what I’m trying to say is SOMEBODY has got to be top dog, and I’d say for the most part we’ve done a bang up job in that regard.

This makes me wonder.  What is an example of something bad the U.S. could have done along the way to make you NOT say this?
We've attacked and taken over a country having nothing to do with an attack on ours (Iraq).
We've parlayed our irrational(?) fear of the spread of communism into wars in Korea and Vietnam. 
We can (and do) economically bully anyone we want to.
We've made the UN our puppet.
We have bases around the world and use phrases like "national defense" and "best interests" as a rationale for any action we wish, while using those bases (and carriers and subs) to enact them.
.
Since the end of WWII, have we been a good world police?  We've done a lot of good (I assume), but the above question is a genuine one. 
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24853 on: June 23, 2023, 04:56:54 AM »
*something realistic

Don't say we haven't invaded Canada, because it would be a waste of time to do that and wouldn't yield anything.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24854 on: June 23, 2023, 04:59:31 AM »
And I do have to say, the severe fear of the spread of communism confuses me.

If it's such a piss-poor system, why not just let it play out and have those who implement it find that out on their own?  
Our actions are those of someone fearful of the system succeeding and eventually spreading on it's merits, no?  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24855 on: June 23, 2023, 06:29:52 AM »
we certainly have propped up evil dictatorships to deter potential enemies
We certainly have, but I don't think we're in the UAE for example for that reason.  Nor in Japan or South Korea or Germany et al.We're there to project power and in theory deter wider conflict and ensure "freedom of the seas".  There are plenty of dictatorships we have not propped up that have failed and we were not interested because they were not in strategic positions.

We allied with Stalin in WW 2 in a huge way for obvious reasons, not to prop him up.

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24856 on: June 23, 2023, 07:26:31 AM »
we certainly have

usually spouting later about the lesser of two evils

perhaps even taking out the evil dictator later when the original enemy threat is no longer
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24857 on: June 23, 2023, 07:38:31 AM »
Every country needs "real politik" in their foreign policy.  I guess it sounds good to rail on and on about supporting dictators, but in many cases, the alternative is simply worse.  And as I've said, merely  having a base in some dictator's back yard doesn't mean we are actively keeping him in power.  It probably means it's a strategically critical location.

Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24858 on: June 23, 2023, 07:53:57 AM »
I believe Bush genuinely thought Saddam Hussein was a genuine threat to the Middle East region and thought we would be seen as liberators. Remember, they call it Operation Iraqi Freedom?  

They had no idea that they were dealing with a population that is 600 years behind ours. The whole split Muslim thing is not well understood by most Westeners. Shia, Sunni May as well be Jews and Nazis. I don’t think you’ll find many people who support what we did over there 20 years later. 

I often wonder how Iraq is doing now?  The media doesn’t report on it much, and the whole Syria civil war took much of the spot light away from Iraq. But I have no idea if they are a dictatorship again, democracy, or what. Did Isis take it over?  How do most of the Iraqi people feel about the American people 20 years later?  Maybe some think we tried but just couldn’t get it done. 

Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24859 on: June 23, 2023, 08:06:04 AM »
And I do have to say, the severe fear of the spread of communism confuses me.

If it's such a piss-poor system, why not just let it play out and have those who implement it find that out on their own? 
Our actions are those of someone fearful of the system succeeding and eventually spreading on it's merits, no? 
Lots of people are subject to communism who don’t want it including North Korea and S Vietnam ( from the 60’s and 70’s). I think most people in Vietnam are ok with how their country has evolved.  Almost all of the eastern block countries ditched communism after the Iron Curtain fell. 

what Stalin and Mao did was justification enough. It was about these dictatorships and their power than it was their form of government. 

Afterall, I think most educated people realize that most communist countries are not actually communist, but dictatorships that are disguised as communists. North Korea is a prime example as is China. I honestly have never researched exactly what entails a true communist country, other than a set of ideas about ownership of means of production etc.  

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24860 on: June 23, 2023, 08:07:26 AM »


This of course is but one metric, GDP Iraq in US dollars, they seem to be doing "OK" by this one.

Iraqis Look Back: Is Life Better Today? (gallup.com)




Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24861 on: June 23, 2023, 08:11:42 AM »
Also, we could have nuked Russia for almost 5 years and chose not to. We could have used nukes in N Korea and chose not to ( McAuther wanted to). We could have occupied and ruled Western Europe but chose not to. Sure, invading Iraq was wrong, but we spent a hell of a lot of money trying to build them up. 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24862 on: June 23, 2023, 08:26:35 AM »
Lots of people are subject to communism who don’t want it including North Korea and S Vietnam ( from the 60’s and 70’s). I think most people in Vietnam are ok with how their country has evolved.  Almost all of the eastern block countries ditched communism after the Iron Curtain fell.

what Stalin and Mao did was justification enough. It was about these dictatorships and their power than it was their form of government.

Afterall, I think most educated people realize that most communist countries are not actually communist, but dictatorships that are disguised as communists. North Korea is a prime example as is China. I honestly have never researched exactly what entails a true communist country, other than a set of ideas about ownership of means of production etc. 
There are a ton of people in Florida who are here because they were NOT happy in their home country. They are glad to be here, unlike some of our own citizens.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24863 on: June 23, 2023, 08:28:38 AM »
ton of people in Texas that didn't like their home state
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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