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Topic: In other news ...

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MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24556 on: June 16, 2023, 11:26:49 AM »
I fail to see any vital US Strategic interest in who controls Ukraine. Apart from that, while Russia's conventional military appears to be a bit of a paper tiger, they remain a nuclear power and I am adamantly opposed to risking nuclear war over something that simply is not important to the US.
What's worth a Nuclear War really? Like the Computer said in the movie War Games "The only winning move is not to play"
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24557 on: June 16, 2023, 11:48:37 AM »
What's worth a Nuclear War really? Like the Computer said in the movie War Games "The only winning move is not to play"
Well, that is a really deep question.  My answer, kinda generically, would be an existential threat.  As a practical matter that basically only means a nuclear threat.  Ie, if Putin says "I've had it with you (NATO) supporting my enemy, as of (date certain) anyone supporting Ukraine will be at war with Russia and subject to Nuclear retaliation from Russia."  Ok, at that point there are only two choices:
  • Back out of Ukraine (Which I already favor), or
  • Nuke Russia first and *HOPE* that your first-strike neutralizes their launch capability.  

Then there is the issue of the "Letter of Last Resort", what to do in the case that we get vaporized
the issue of the "Letter of Last Resort", what to do in the case that we get vaporized.  That link is somewhat outdated but an interesting read.  


Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24558 on: June 16, 2023, 11:57:56 AM »
NATO has had a vested strategic interest in border stability in Europe, it's really one of their unwritten rules.  When a country starts moving a border using military force, it's pretty serious.  It can happen in Africa and they don't get too worried, or Yugoslavia can break up and it's "OK" except for the strife that followed.  The core idea is that borders are sacrosanct.  Nobody should be allowed to change any of them by force.  Crimea worried everyone but there didn't seem to be any option.  I think folks figured "OK, it used to be Russia, we'll use harsh naguage and let it go."  The idea Russia could basically run over Ukraine and install their own rump government was viewed differrently.  When Ukraine resisted, it obviously encouraged support to keep them humming.

This is inherent in Article V, which of course doesn't include Ukraine fortunately.

I think the other interest is to bleed Russia dry and get rid of Putin.  "We" are putting in "money" basically and Russia is putting in troops.  Ukraine is our mercenary force.

I don't think we'd launch a first strike on Russia and if we did, there is little chance we'd knock out everything, and even ten remaining for counterstrike would be ...


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24559 on: June 16, 2023, 12:45:38 PM »
My "nephew". Because Long Beach lol...

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24560 on: June 16, 2023, 12:52:05 PM »
WTF...
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24561 on: June 16, 2023, 01:36:47 PM »
Live updates: Latest news on Russia and the war in Ukraine (cnbc.com)

An international team of investigators said in a new report that it is “highly likely Russian forces deliberately destroyed” the Kakhovka dam in southern Ukraine.

“We find there is a high probability the collapse of the dam was caused by pre-emplaced explosives positioned at critical points within its structure,” explained Catriona Murdoch, a lawyer and expert in starvation-related crimes, who was also part of one of the first delegations to arrive at the site.

One reason I tend to believe this is how tough it would be to take out a dam externally with some weapon.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24562 on: June 16, 2023, 02:09:37 PM »
Live updates: Latest news on Russia and the war in Ukraine (cnbc.com)

An international team of investigators said in a new report that it is “highly likely Russian forces deliberately destroyed” the Kakhovka dam in southern Ukraine.

“We find there is a high probability the collapse of the dam was caused by pre-emplaced explosives positioned at critical points within its structure,” explained Catriona Murdoch, a lawyer and expert in starvation-related crimes, who was also part of one of the first delegations to arrive at the site.

One reason I tend to believe this is how tough it would be to take out a dam externally with some weapon.
An Anglo-American operation did it to some German dams 80 years ago and it took a LOT of planning, design, and effort:   

https://youtu.be/aHGgXi4Kwqw


Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24563 on: June 16, 2023, 05:07:48 PM »
Yup, and it took some heavy ordinance as well, a thing not common with Ukrainian armed forces.  A five inch shell would make a small dent in most dams.  You reallly need to get inside the dam and pile up a lot of stuff.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24564 on: June 16, 2023, 05:59:23 PM »
Russia-Ukraine aside, I don't think big, obvious county-vs-country war is a thing anymore, when it comes to the top handful of countries.
.
That's why I find it more likely 1 nuke is slipped in and set off, with mystery/debate/uncertainty over who done it is more likely than what a conventional strike would look like.  Another way that I find more likely is one country hacking another's weapons systems and getting them to nuke themselves.
.
Both scenarios, however unlikely, are absolutely less % chance of "mutually assured destruction."  Both have deniability built in. 
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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24565 on: June 16, 2023, 06:12:33 PM »
Fleetwood Haymarket 

  · Lincoln, NE  ·
Let’s taco ‘bout this weekends dinner special! Branzino Fish Tacos— fried Branzino, crispy jicama, avocado, citrus slaw, sweet pepper aioli, lime, and cilantro rice with black beans and corn. For the drink special this weekend we are bringing back an old happy hour fan favorite, the Fleetwater! Made with house infused jalapeño tequila, Topo Chico seltzer, and house made sour! (Can’t forget the tajin rim🤤)


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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24566 on: June 17, 2023, 08:04:35 AM »
But Russia had no need to resort to nuclear weapons for now, said Putin, signalling no change in Moscow's nuclear posture which only envisages such a move if the existence of the Russian state is threatened.

"Nuclear weapons have been made to ensure our security in the broadest sense of the word and the existence of the Russian state, but we...have no such need (to use them)," Putin said.

But he said talks with the West to reduce Russia's vast nuclear arsenal, the world's largest, were a non-starter.

"Just talking about this (the potential use of nuclear weapons) lowers the nuclear threshold. We have more than NATO countries and they want to reduce our numbers. Screw them," said Putin.


U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24567 on: June 17, 2023, 08:42:47 AM »
seems he may be thinking logically, for now

good for him
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GopherRock

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24568 on: June 17, 2023, 09:48:52 AM »
If he had been thinking logically at any point during the last two years, he wouldn't have invaded Ukraine, and Russia wouldn't find themselves in the jam they're in. 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24569 on: June 17, 2023, 10:02:50 AM »
It's hard for dickfaces to think logically.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

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