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Topic: In other news ...

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longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23296 on: May 05, 2023, 05:27:49 PM »
Nothing personal but I gotta say I prefer Clarence Carter over Clarence Thomas:



You have clearly been hanging around Fearless too much
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23297 on: May 05, 2023, 05:37:17 PM »
I think this cuts to the crux of the issue.

This started with the issue that SF artificially lowered its density from being in competition for the most dense major city to just being the second-most dense by a healthy margin.

But in truth, being that dense hasn't been a slave. So now we're moving out, saying "If only San Jose or Oakland were more dense, THAT'S the magic bullet," as if being like NYC isn't both a rarity and a massive undertaking/accident of history. And our comparison point is ... the NYC metro, where affordable housing is also a nightmare.

I'm not saying you're wrong that more housing should in theory lower that price point. You're right. But when it all works out, density on its own doesn't seem to correlate with affordable housing, and it's worth keeping that in mind when we want start imagining semi-unfeasible things like getting Santa Rosa to be more like Queens. It's all a great theory, but the same kind of market theory holds that forces shouldn't produce real estate prices like this to begin with.

(I also wonder about what I'd call untapped demand. I remember reading The Power Broker, in part about the development of NYC. And they ran into an issue of early traffic problems. The answer, much like our density think, is to build more roads, bridges and tunnels. And it turned out that every new pathway they built gave more folks the bright idea to drive, so each bridge in turn was overwhelmed and we have the joy of modern NYC traffic. Whatever bubble is out there isn't deterred by paying $1,300 per square foot)
Yeah, and I didn't intend to unfairly single out SF. I find it to be one of the more egregious when it comes to fighting density, but my overarching point was that EVERYWHERE fights density. The NYC metro mostly was built before anyone figured out to fight it, but the rest of the nation didn't. 

There are also confounding variables here. One of the things that density does is attract more people, via network effects. Metro areas have more jobs--and more ability to change jobs within your industry--than rural areas where one employer might be dominant. Metro areas have more cultural enrichment available, more variety of restaurants, more opportunities for activities, etc, because of the higher density. If you've got a passion for underwater basket-weaving, it's a lot more likely that you'll find fellow underwater basket-weaving enthusiasts in a metro area than in an rural area. 

That's a natural phenomenon. Why did Silicon Valley become such a hotbed of tech? Because back in the 70s and 80s, it was the up and coming tech location. And then it attracted tech people from all over the country, so it became even more of a hotbed of tech. It was a positive feedback loop due to the network effects. 

So cities are naturally going to be more expensive than rural areas. Because more people want to live there, and it seems that the bigger they get, the MORE that people want to live there. That will naturally make cities expensive. 

But density will at the very least help. 

ELA

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23298 on: May 05, 2023, 06:17:35 PM »
you lost me

whats the problem with CT other then hes conservative
He is equally bought and paid for

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23299 on: May 05, 2023, 08:03:10 PM »
This is not really true.

The free market doesn't have rules about who it benefits, it only bends toward efficiency.
On a long-enough timeline, a free market yields one monopoly owning everything.  There's your efficiency.
Even my most staunch naysayer knows that's a bad thing.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23300 on: May 05, 2023, 08:05:49 PM »
We all agree that housing in SF and other metropolitan areas is expensive.  I have never lived in any of the large metro areas (I did live in Santa Clara, California for a month 20 years ago when I worked for AMAT ) so help me to understand. 

What is the average wages of the service folk there?  Are they making minimum wage, and why would they continue to accept that kind of pay when clearly there is no housing there for them?  New hires at Buc-Ees here make $12-15 per hour.  I pay a kid $15 per hour barely 18.  You'd have to make $25-30 per hour, maybe more, just to be able to afford a ghetto place in SF and similar places. 
Because they don't have options!
All they have is their day-to-day.  They can't afford to take a day off to seek other employment.  They can't afford to take a day off to seek cheaper housing further away.  They can't afford to travel to work from further away.  

This is akin to asking why the starving people in Somalia don't just move to where the food is.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23301 on: May 06, 2023, 12:01:35 AM »
Yeah, and I didn't intend to unfairly single out SF. I find it to be one of the more egregious when it comes to fighting density, but my overarching point was that EVERYWHERE fights density. The NYC metro mostly was built before anyone figured out to fight it, but the rest of the nation didn't.

There are also confounding variables here. One of the things that density does is attract more people, via network effects. Metro areas have more jobs--and more ability to change jobs within your industry--than rural areas where one employer might be dominant. Metro areas have more cultural enrichment available, more variety of restaurants, more opportunities for activities, etc, because of the higher density. If you've got a passion for underwater basket-weaving, it's a lot more likely that you'll find fellow underwater basket-weaving enthusiasts in a metro area than in an rural area.

That's a natural phenomenon. Why did Silicon Valley become such a hotbed of tech? Because back in the 70s and 80s, it was the up and coming tech location. And then it attracted tech people from all over the country, so it became even more of a hotbed of tech. It was a positive feedback loop due to the network effects.

So cities are naturally going to be more expensive than rural areas. Because more people want to live there, and it seems that the bigger they get, the MORE that people want to live there. That will naturally make cities expensive.

But density will at the very least help.

This feels right.

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23302 on: May 06, 2023, 12:08:57 AM »
We all agree that housing in SF and other metropolitan areas is expensive.  I have never lived in any of the large metro areas (I did live in Santa Clara, California for a month 20 years ago when I worked for AMAT ) so help me to understand. 

What is the average wages of the service folk there?  Are they making minimum wage, and why would they continue to accept that kind of pay when clearly there is no housing there for them?  New hires at Buc-Ees here make $12-15 per hour.  I pay a kid $15 per hour barely 18.  You'd have to make $25-30 per hour, maybe more, just to be able to afford a ghetto place in SF and similar places. 
Higher than a lot of places, but not that high. People have an amazing ability to grind out situations. You live on couches, stay with relatives in cramped places that are kinda terrible. 

I had a friend who about a decade ago paid $1,000 a month to live in one bedroom of a five bedroom with minimal common space over a Chinese doughnut shop. That was a good deal in a recently semi-gentrified neighborhood. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23303 on: May 06, 2023, 12:39:36 AM »
Higher than a lot of places, but not that high. People have an amazing ability to grind out situations. You live on couches, stay with relatives in cramped places that are kinda terrible.

Yes, and this ability will forever be exploited.
.
I was perusing the FB marketplace housing ads in Phoenix a few minutes ago.  People are renting out bedrooms for $600-900/month, almost none of which have a private bathroom.  Hell, there's one where they were renting out a shared bedroom for $350/mo.  Yes, share a bed with a random person and share a room.

That's the "amazing ability" taking place today.  
When people are paid so poorly and housing costs are this high, we're willing to be like rats on a ship. 
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23304 on: May 06, 2023, 01:30:11 AM »
On a long-enough timeline, a free market yields one monopoly owning everything. 
Prove it. And show your work.

Note: the movie WALL-E is not admissible as evidence. 

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23305 on: May 06, 2023, 07:51:02 AM »
In 1969 Queen Elizabeth II became the first British monarch to travel on the Tube, and has remained the only one to ride ever since.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23306 on: May 06, 2023, 08:06:00 AM »
Prove it. And show your work.

Note: the movie WALL-E is not admissible as evidence.

That really is a very good movie

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23307 on: May 06, 2023, 10:48:28 AM »
Anyone paying attention to this coronation stuff going on in the UK?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23308 on: May 06, 2023, 10:49:33 AM »
nope
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23309 on: May 06, 2023, 11:30:36 AM »
Anyone paying attention to this coronation stuff going on in the UK?
Id rather watch paint drt
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

 

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