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Topic: In other news ...

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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23282 on: May 05, 2023, 01:30:14 PM »
government meddling usually has good intentions

also usually has not so good results
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23283 on: May 05, 2023, 01:57:08 PM »

I just usually believe that the free market can do a better job than the government can.  Again, if demand is high, and supply is low, the price will always be high no matter what the government does.  So you either need to drop demand, or increase supply. 
"The free market" works for the majority, for the middle bulk of the bell curve.
It breaks down at both extremes.
SF is an outlier.
The free market breaks down and doesn't work for this situation.
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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23284 on: May 05, 2023, 02:12:42 PM »
So give us some solutions. Even one maybe.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23285 on: May 05, 2023, 02:29:25 PM »
"The free market" works for the majority, for the middle bulk of the bell curve.
It breaks down at both extremes.
SF is an outlier.
The free market breaks down and doesn't work for this situation.

But as I pointed out, "the free market" has absolutely NOT been allowed to work in SF. 

If I use gov't to make it illegal for you to buy food, it's not going to be "the free market's" fault that you starve to death. 

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23286 on: May 05, 2023, 02:30:20 PM »
Again, I think of this as being the entire Bay Area, and SF is only one bit of it.

SF is naturally small physically. I.e. if you look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density

San Francisco proper is the second most dense city to New York City, at about 2/3 of the density per square mile. But NYC houses 8M people while SF houses 800K because NYC is physically larger. So you have a completely different order of magnitude in scale between the two.

Where it gets REALLY interesting is if you filter and sort that list of the top 125 incorporated areas based upon metropolitan area.

The New York City Metropolitan area has another 56 incorporated cities on that list which house an additional 2.3M people.

The San Francisco Metropolitan area has another 5 incorporated cities on this list which house an additional 295K people. That's Daly City, San Pablo, East Palo Alto, Berkeley and Albany. Again, that's another order of magnitude. And the highest on that list is 49th in density. 23 of the NYC metro areas are above 49th on the list and are about 1.1M of the 2.3M from that NYC metro.

So yes, San Francisco is expensive, and relatively dense. Even if it reached NYC's density, the population would only go from about 800K to about 1.2M. So it would still be expensive. But if the entire Bay Area, including extending down the peninsula and across the Bay, was a little more like the NYC metro area, the ENTIRE Bay Area would still have high demand but the affordability point would be much more accessible than it is today.

I think this cuts to the crux of the issue.

This started with the issue that SF artificially lowered its density from being in competition for the most dense major city to just being the second-most dense by a healthy margin.

But in truth, being that dense hasn't been a slave. So now we're moving out, saying "If only San Jose or Oakland were more dense, THAT'S the magic bullet," as if being like NYC isn't both a rarity and a massive undertaking/accident of history. And our comparison point is ... the NYC metro, where affordable housing is also a nightmare. 

I'm not saying you're wrong that more housing should in theory lower that price point. You're right. But when it all works out, density on its own doesn't seem to correlate with affordable housing, and it's worth keeping that in mind when we want start imagining semi-unfeasible things like getting Santa Rosa to be more like Queens. It's all a great theory, but the same kind of market theory holds that forces shouldn't produce real estate prices like this to begin with. 

(I also wonder about what I'd call untapped demand. I remember reading The Power Broker, in part about the development of NYC. And they ran into an issue of early traffic problems. The answer, much like our density think, is to build more roads, bridges and tunnels. And it turned out that every new pathway they built gave more folks the bright idea to drive, so each bridge in turn was overwhelmed and we have the joy of modern NYC traffic. Whatever bubble is out there isn't deterred by paying $1,300 per square foot)

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23287 on: May 05, 2023, 02:30:58 PM »
"The free market" works for the majority, for the middle bulk of the bell curve.
It breaks down at both extremes.
SF is an outlier.
The free market breaks down and doesn't work for this situation.

This is not really true. 

The free market doesn't have rules about who it benefits, it only bends toward efficiency. 

ELA

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23288 on: May 05, 2023, 03:01:52 PM »
Apparently AOC and Gaetz are co-sponsoring a bill to end this.  I can't think of a better definition of wide spread support.  Between her and Clarence Thomas, any thought that government isn't bought and paid for is laughable


https://twitter.com/unusual_whales/status/1654174927124037645?s=20
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 03:08:00 PM by ELA »

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23289 on: May 05, 2023, 03:23:09 PM »
Apparently AOC and Gaetz are co-sponsoring a bill to end this.  I can't think of a better definition of wide spread support.  Between her and Clarence Thomas, any thought that government isn't bought and paid for is laughable


you lost me

whats the problem with CT other then hes conservative
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FearlessF

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"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."


longhorn320

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They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

bayareabadger

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Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23294 on: May 05, 2023, 05:02:14 PM »
We all agree that housing in SF and other metropolitan areas is expensive.  I have never lived in any of the large metro areas (I did live in Santa Clara, California for a month 20 years ago when I worked for AMAT ) so help me to understand.  

What is the average wages of the service folk there?  Are they making minimum wage, and why would they continue to accept that kind of pay when clearly there is no housing there for them?  New hires at Buc-Ees here make $12-15 per hour.  I pay a kid $15 per hour barely 18.  You'd have to make $25-30 per hour, maybe more, just to be able to afford a ghetto place in SF and similar places.  

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23295 on: May 05, 2023, 05:05:34 PM »
Nothing personal but I gotta say I prefer Clarence Carter over Clarence Thomas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7gMkiOPSeA

 

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