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Topic: In other news ...

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Brutus Buckeye

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Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15681 on: April 14, 2022, 07:42:34 AM »
I’m calling BS on the previous post of killing the general at 300 yards with an open sighted musket rifle. Maybe I’m just ignorant to the capabilities of those rifles and their marksmen but it just doesn’t seem viable to my untrained eye. 

Could have just been a lucky shot, or could have just been a coincidence that somebody else shot him about the same time. 300 yards with no scope?  Now if he had some kind of early scope then maybe. But I didn’t think those were availability until the late 1800’s. But then again I’m not very knowledgeable about early arms and their capabilities. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15682 on: April 14, 2022, 08:08:47 AM »
They would have had open sights.  But Marines train with open sights at 300 yards, albeit with M16s.  It would be a lucky shot with a rifle.  

Few in the American army had rifles back then, they were more prominent in the South, but few larger battles were fought in the South.  The major battles were fought in the "old fashioned way", which is why folks like von Steuben were important.  The British were adept at flanking moves which Washington often missed.  It's curious as he should have had a better knowledge of terrain than the British.

Anyway, this is why I stated it's largely a myth that most battles in this war were fought hiding behind trees and rocks.  Some were, and some deteriorated into that as troops fled the scene, but MOST were pretty standard affairs.  The Continental Army was trained to fight this way.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15683 on: April 14, 2022, 08:58:41 AM »
The ones that DID primary fight from behind cover were the Militia. They were woodsmen and frontier men that had been living in the wilderness and had learned a lot from the indians. They saw the futility of trying to stand toe to toe with the British and didn't subscribe to the notion of war being fought as gentlemen. They understood that war is hell and that bringing hell to your enemy is the best way to win it. 

However, you are correct that the regular army still chose to fight battles the same way the European countries had been fighting it, standing in lines and firing volleys into their opponent also standing in line while keeping officers "off limits" to the bloodshed.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15684 on: April 14, 2022, 09:05:37 AM »
The militia largely fought beside the Continental Army, or in smaller battles (some of which were significant, but with small numbers).  The militia largely also had smoothbores ineffective at any range.  The way they were used at Cowpens was interesting, have them stand and deliver one or two volleys and then retreat.  

The larger battles, and none were relatively large, were fought the standard way.  That is why I said in larger battles, the image of clever Rebels fighting behind rocks and trees is largely a myth.  It happened, as exceptions, but it was not the norm.

The tactics in the US Civil War remained the same initially until both sides largely had rifled muskets and Minie balls, and they STILL fought in lines and with formations attacking often as not, with dire results.  You can't march a mile into rifle fire with anything like near equal numbers.  It's a matter of math.

Drew4UTk

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15685 on: April 14, 2022, 09:22:17 AM »
The maximum effective range of an m16, which is just a rifle, is 850 yards.  The old known distance range for qualifying went to 500 yards. 

I watched a SF dude in Eastern Africa ripping down guys on a roof 900 yards away one afternoon.  He was firing a colt H-Bar version of the ar-15/m-16... he did this freehand, as in standing nonchalantly... my partner and I were trying to get on target for the same target- following stupid procedure of identifying the target, ranging the target, azimuth to the target, plotting the target on a map, THEN asking to compromise authority (engage the target). This dude just walked up, we pointed them out to him, and he started knocking them over.

Some of the ranges with today's systems are fantastical.  The furthest I've ever shot was 1100 yards.  I've never had reason to try any further.  Some, now, are reaching over 3000m (that's meters) regularly.  There is a shot recorded now in excess of 4k meters.  I mean, with all the dope adjustments (ranging windage elevation and ballistics considerations) at that freaking range you literally have to take curvature of the earth into consideration. 

Quick tale: a bunch of tali's stood atop a ridge some 2800m from the position of a patrol of mixed bag ASF, squeals, and a pair of Canadian snipers.  They were literally flipping the finger and mooning them.  Both teams could clearly see the other and they were antagonizing each other... night was setting in.  The Canadian team broke out there new system, which at the time was still in R&D, which was a 410chyane.  It has a scope mounted atop it that wires into a computer the observer wears in his ruck.  He makes adjustments, or better said "approves" dope adjustments the computer offers.  The computer reads wind speed at the shooters position, at the ballistic "maximum ordinance" (highest point bullet reaches enroute to target), and at the target.  It registers humidity and temperature (every 20% increase in relative humidity lowers the impact a MoA and every 20 degree increase in temperature raises the impact a MoA).. all of this is done real quick like.  The "scope" also records the shot... and that is where and why hilarity ensued...

The tali started falling over.  They were watching the team engage them but they just couldn't grasp the shots could be those and frombthat distance.. instead they started scanning the sky- standing there dumb like looking to the clouds as if they were concealing CAS... but nope... while they looked up the Canadians selected another target and dropped them. 

The story reminds me of another I'll quickly share:

First gulf war... an American F/A18 on the approach with a cowboy at the stick.. an Iraqi military facility in the open desert.  The bird coming in nap of the earth (really really low) and setting free a rocket... the rocket had a camera... as the rocket approaches an Iraqi officer opens the door and starts to step out, and sees the rocket coming at him from some distance.... his response, reflexively no doubt, was to jump back inside and slam the door.  My guess is he didn't make it. 

Dark humor.. sue me.  Life does that to some.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15686 on: April 14, 2022, 09:49:52 AM »
Corolis effects start to be important over 1000 meters.

I just reread for the nth time Stephen Hunter's novel "Point of Impact", on which the movie "Shooter" was rather loosely based.

Fun read.

Drew4UTk

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15687 on: April 14, 2022, 10:04:43 AM »
i like stephen hunter's books... dirty white boys is fantastic.  the Dunn's and Pile's are a constant cascading characters set in his stuff. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15688 on: April 14, 2022, 10:12:17 AM »
I think I've read every one of his books.  Same with Bernard Cornwell and a few others.

Drew4UTk

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15689 on: April 14, 2022, 10:20:16 AM »
speaking of authors writing fiction you wouldn't expect to be really really good... when reading this series this passage stopped me cold and i read it again and again... 

guess the author?  it'll likely startle you to find out who it is... 


Quote
“So do we pass the ghosts that haunt us later in our lives; they sit undramatically by the roadside like poor beggars, and we see them only from the corners of our eyes, if we see them at all. The idea that they have been waiting there for us rarely if ever crosses our minds. Yet they do wait, and when we have passed, they gather up their bundles of memory and fall in behind, treading in our footsteps and catching up, little by little.”
and yet another, taken from a sci-fi book I can't remember the title or author, and very little of the story itself... I was likely 10 to 12, and this passage also stopped me cold- out of context it has greatly impacted much of my thought process throughout life: 



Quote
"no law written by man which contradicts the laws of nature (God) will stand through the test of time."


funny how little pebbles like that make great big craters when they land just right. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15690 on: April 14, 2022, 10:53:33 AM »
The latter sounds like Heinlein, he always included a lot of social commentary.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15691 on: April 14, 2022, 11:19:45 AM »
Cadillac CTS-V Wagon Is Our Bring a Trailer Pick of the Day (caranddriver.com)

I recall some years back our local Caddy dealer had two of these on the showroom with manual transmissions on sale for a song.  I pretty much knew they would go up in price, I just didn't have the extra cash at the time.  This is one of the craziest cars ever made in my opinion.  Of course, buying Apple stock would have been a far better investment.

Bring a Trailer's highest winning bid for a CTS-V happened last year, when a 2011 CTS-V wagon with just 7400 miles sold for $96,500.


MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15692 on: April 14, 2022, 11:24:17 AM »
They would have had open sights.  But Marines train with open sights at 300 yards, albeit with M16s.  It would be a lucky shot with a rifle. 

Few in the American army had rifles back then, they were more prominent in the South, but few larger battles were fought in the South.  The major battles were fought in the "old fashioned way", which is why folks like von Steuben were important.  The British were adept at flanking moves which Washington often missed.  It's curious as he should have had a better knowledge of terrain than the British.

Anyway, this is why I stated it's largely a myth that most battles in this war were fought hiding behind trees and rocks.  Some were, and some deteriorated into that as troops fled the scene, but MOST were pretty standard affairs.  The Continental Army was trained to fight this way.
More bollocks you make me sleepy,read this - it's in English. I accept a lot of what you say at face value this isn't one of them.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/british-tactics-and-conflicting-strategies-executing-american-revolution

In some capacities, the American Revolution was a guerilla war, unlike anything the British Empire had faced up until that point. We must remember that the American forces had the tactical advantage of knowing the country better than their British counterparts. The Fabian strategy of deception and poking and prodding the enemy was accepted by Washington, and guerilla tactics were used to harass British posts and baggage trains wherever possible. An overwhelming majority of the British forces during the war had no prior experience in North America. We can begin to see how this put them at a disadvantage of not knowing the country and having to rely on others; sometimes, local citizens or Native American parties would assist, while other times reports were made from defectors and deserters. Regardless, the British had limited means of accessing the country. Despite seizing much of the existing surveys and maps of the continent, they found themselves having to create many more as they discovered the terrain in real time. This uncertainty also helps explain how tactics used to turn civilians into steadfast loyalists most likely undermined their cause. Because of a combination of hostile conditions, and being viewed as an occupying force, we often overlook the anxiety many within the British ranks felt as they resented the reception they received by portions of the American population.

We must then conclude that both strategy and the tactics used to enforce it were at odds with the realities on the ground.
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15693 on: April 14, 2022, 11:48:16 AM »

Few in the American army had rifles back then, they were more prominent in the South, but few larger battles were fought in the South.  The major battles were fought in the "old fashioned way", which is why folks like von Steuben were important.  The British were adept at flanking moves which Washington often missed.  It's curious as he should have had a better knowledge of terrain than the British.
Links were left and they weren't pulled from my backside. Oh really then how did the colonists defeat the world's largest empires military at the time?Sling shots,clubs,axes,spears hookers spreading VD,poisoned cider? Read those links,they are not bullshit because you have Your mind made up or can't admit you may be slightly mistaken.
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

 

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