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Topic: In other news ...

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MaximumSam

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14280 on: March 10, 2022, 10:09:11 AM »
Yeah, and a lot of those transit systems that DO get built have poor ridership numbers and are not self-sustaining. Yet the answer is "build more transit!" even though you can look at past history in cities with low-mid population density and realize it's likely to be a failure...

The best transit to expand would be bus services. It's cheap [relatively], modular, and can adjust routes/timing to match changing population needs.
Yes! Because of what you just mentioned. Putting a value on something being "self-sustaining" is, on its face, stupid. Because you aren't trying to build a business, you are trying to make other options for transit that alleviates the need for a car. However, because we don't understand how economics work, we try to make a public transit system its own business, which leads to crappy products that no one wants.

We don't use this for other options. Sidewalks are a form of transit, but no one goes on about the need for sidewalks to be "self-sustaining." That would be absurd. But here we are.

FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14281 on: March 10, 2022, 10:09:30 AM »
The "will of the people", even if dumb, is a major factor in practicability of a thing.

We're still turning corn into bioethanol to add to gasoline.
and with the price of oil going up..... good for the american corn farmer!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14282 on: March 10, 2022, 10:13:50 AM »
Well, it is hard. Population density is a direct result of the transit options. So to say, hey, our city is too spread out to need or use public transit is more of a just so story than a policy.
Or some would say they go hand in hand... You need a minimum level of density to support transit, and then the addition of transit will create economic pressure to increase density. But it's not exactly an Iowa farmland "build it and they will come" sort of situation...

https://kinder.rice.edu/2018/11/13/excerpt-many-cities-have-transit-how-many-have-good-transit



Quote
Density
Nothing matters as much to making transit useful and successful as population density. Every mile of transit costs money to build and operate. Fundamentally, the usefulness of that mile is a based on simple math: how many people will that mile of transit reach? A mile of route puts roughly a square mile of area within reach of transit. If 100 people live in that square mile, there are 100 potential transit riders; if 10,000 people live in that square, there are 10,000 potential transit riders.
Multiple research studies have attempted to quantify density thresholds for transit. At somewhere around 3,000 people per square mile, it makes sense to operate some level of infrequent local bus service. This level of density is common in US cities, both in prewar neighborhoods and postwar car-oriented suburbia. Here, while an hourly bus will get ridership, transit will never be the most convenient mode, and most people will choose to drive. Somewhere around 10,000 people per square mile, though, transit reaches a tipping point. Here, the sheer number of people are enough to justify frequent service. Moreover, walking and biking become useful for short trips, which makes it easier for people to live without cars and makes transit more desirable. As densities further increase, more and more transit is justified. The transit- oriented neighborhoods of older cities have over 15,000 people per square mile, and even newer car-oriented cities like Los Angeles and Houston have some neighborhoods at these densities.
The performance of a rail or BRT line is directly related to the surrounding densities. For example, the most successful light-rail systems in the United States—San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Newark, Jersey City, Buffalo, and Houston—serve large areas of over 10,000 people per square mile.

It will take decades to jump from, say, 5,000/sq mi to 10,000/sq mi. 

And it also doesn't help much when zoning boards are pro-light rail while also driving anti-density policies...

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14283 on: March 10, 2022, 10:15:05 AM »
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14284 on: March 10, 2022, 10:18:25 AM »

By 4-lane, they mean 2 lanes per direction, right? 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14285 on: March 10, 2022, 10:20:12 AM »
Yes.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MaximumSam

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14286 on: March 10, 2022, 10:20:35 AM »

Quote
And it also doesn't help much when zoning boards are pro-light rail while also driving anti-density policies...
Definitely

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14287 on: March 10, 2022, 10:22:13 AM »
A thing happening here, finally, is that area near a MARTA station are burgeoning, it's viewed as a big plus, at least in promo materials.  So, to an extent, that is a build it and they will come, decades later, but I have a suspicion most buying condos and renting near stations still mostly drive anyway.  We're just under a mile from two stations, which works to get to the airport, weather permitting.  The real development is closer to those two stations, and it's extreme.  The same is happening on other lines that cut through what were sketchy neighborhoods back in the day.

I'm not totally against such things obviously, but we need to be realistic about proposals and examine the cost:benefit carefully, or we end up with things like we see in CA with HSR, a predictable major disaster.  And technology may supplant the need for some of this in time.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14288 on: March 10, 2022, 10:52:14 AM »
A thing happening here, finally, is that area near a MARTA station are burgeoning, it's viewed as a big plus, at least in promo materials.  So, to an extent, that is a build it and they will come, decades later, but I have a suspicion most buying condos and renting near stations still mostly drive anyway.  We're just under a mile from two stations, which works to get to the airport, weather permitting.  The real development is closer to those two stations, and it's extreme.  The same is happening on other lines that cut through what were sketchy neighborhoods back in the day.

I'm not totally against such things obviously, but we need to be realistic about proposals and examine the cost:benefit carefully, or we end up with things like we see in CA with HSR, a predictable major disaster.  And technology may supplant the need for some of this in time.
Apparently even Atlanta's population wouldn't be considered particularly dense...


https://www.threadatl.org/2018/05/16/atlantas-population-density-are-we-full/

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14289 on: March 10, 2022, 10:58:27 AM »
Apparently even Atlanta's population wouldn't be considered particularly dense...
The metro area is not at all.  Even west of us inside the city has an amazing amount of empty space.  But inside the city is changing fast, especially near us.  The metro area has no geographic limits, like Lake Michigan or an ocean, so it sprawls, akin to Dallas.  The metro area is the size of Massachusetts with about the same population.

The hard rail system only includes 3 counties, one of them is tiny, so it can only serve a small portion of the metro area.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14290 on: March 10, 2022, 11:10:36 AM »

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14291 on: March 10, 2022, 11:47:00 AM »
Maybe, maybe. What is undeniable is we constantly chose more cars and more roads over public transit wherever that was an option in a bet on cheap gas and cheap cars. 
You realize in the 40's/50s Big Auto bought out most of the street cars companies in the cities and vehicles/Gas were relatively cheap after the war.Many things weren't decided by the masses.And if you had to ride a train thru the inner cities Not sure you would choose to take that route down to the office.Given all the stops and some less than cordial customers along the way
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14292 on: March 10, 2022, 11:52:36 AM »
We don't use this for other options. Sidewalks are a form of transit, but no one goes on about the need for sidewalks to be "self-sustaining." That would be absurd. But here we are.
Sidewalks aren't absurd they keep pedestrians from becoming speed bumps
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #14293 on: March 10, 2022, 12:13:04 PM »
High speed rail is really happening in Florida but it’s a private company doing it, not the state or fed govt.

Miami to Ft Lauderdale to West Palm route and vice versa has been open for about 3-4 years. Trains only go about 80mph on this route bc of the population density. All the stations are brand new and nice and the trains are as well. West Palm to Miami takes about an hr. Which shoot, takes double or triple that most of the time now during the peak traffic hours. 

Stations for the Aventura Mall in Aventura and near Mizner Park in Boca Raton are approved by those cities and being built. Aventura is a rich area just north of Miami and 

And the extension from West Palm Beach to Orlando is currently under construction and will be done end of this year and open in 2023. There’s a lot of empty space and not a ton of population density from WPB to Orlando - so that route will average speeds of 125mph. Next logical conclusion would be Orlando extends to Tampa and then I’d guess that’d be about it. 

 

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