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Topic: In other news ...

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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13832 on: February 27, 2022, 12:06:12 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 27, 2022, 12:01:41 PM
Biden has zero business negotiating on the part of Ukraine.
Leaving aside the fact that Ukraine is effectively a US colony and has been since 2014 when the US helped stage a coup which overthrew a democratically elected government and then handpicked the interim government....

He wouldn't be negotiating on the part of Ukraine. He'd be negotiating on the part of the United Staes in relation to Ukraine's membership into NATO. Ukraine doesn't have a right to join a military alliance. No country does. This is a foolish fallacy that for some reason people cannot wrap their heads around.

Biden could very easily make a deal to take Ukraine membership in NATO off the table and forever- and he should be doing that right now to end this war and prevent further bloodshed and escalation.
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13833 on: February 27, 2022, 12:07:38 PM »
Biden has zero business negotiating on the part of NATO, or Ukraine, or anyone else.

Zero.  None.  Zip.  The notion is comical.
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13834 on: February 27, 2022, 12:08:25 PM »
Quote from: longhorn320 on February 27, 2022, 12:05:00 PM
what we dont know is what kind of internal pressure Putin is getting from his own folks

Promising not to join NATO is no big deal to Ukraine and they make that deal with some assurance of no future invasions
they'd have to amend their constitution. These morons in this right wing government the US helped prop up and establish in Ukraine have baked future NATO membership into their constitution with an amendment in 2019. Their goal was to be in NATO by 2023 at the earliest and by 2030 at the latest.
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13835 on: February 27, 2022, 12:10:22 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 27, 2022, 12:07:38 PM
Biden has zero business negotiating on the part of NATO, or Ukraine, or anyone else.

Zero.  None.  Zip.  The notion is comical.
this is perhaps the dumbest, most naive thing I've ever read. get real, please. join the real world, will you? the US is the worlds superpower. they negotiate shit on behalf of other countries all of the time. 

US = NATO. The only reason Ukraine and Georgia ever got open ended NATO invitations is BECAUSE of the US. More specifically Bush II. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13836 on: February 27, 2022, 12:11:14 PM »
It is ultra simplistic to think somehow Putin would leave this alone with some agreement not to join NATO.

Putin (and a few others) think NATO already reneged on one promise not to expand.
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longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13837 on: February 27, 2022, 12:12:14 PM »
Quote from: Mdot21 on February 27, 2022, 12:06:12 PM
Leaving aside the fact that Ukraine is effectively a US colony and has been since 2014 when the US helped stage a coup which overthrew a democratically elected government and then handpicked the interim government....

He wouldn't be negotiating on the part of Ukraine. He'd be negotiating on the part of the United Staes in relation to Ukraine's membership into NATO. Ukraine doesn't have a right to join a military alliance. No country does. This is a foolish fallacy that for some reason people cannot wrap their heads around.

Biden could very easily make a deal to take Ukraine membership in NATO off the table and forever- and he should be doing that right now to end this war and prevent further bloodshed and escalation.
I wouldnt offer Russia anything while they are invading Ukraine

Thats a sign of weakness and Russia would just increase the invasion attempt

The fact that Putin wants to talk is encouraging and should be followed up with

The key is allowing Putin to save some face else he will feel that he has nothing to lose to continue the invasion
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13838 on: February 27, 2022, 12:12:32 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 27, 2022, 12:11:14 PM
It is ultra simplistic to think somehow Putin would leave this alone with some agreement not to join NATO.

Putin (and a few others) think NATO already reneged on one promise not to expand.
well obviously it'd have to be in writing and in the form of a binding treaty.

And if the US tells their client state- Ukraine to sign, said client state will sign. Best believe that.
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13839 on: February 27, 2022, 12:13:57 PM »
Quote from: longhorn320 on February 27, 2022, 12:12:14 PM
I wouldnt offer Russia anything while they are invading Ukraine

Thats a sign of weakness and Russia would just increase the invasion attempt

The fact that Putin wants to talk is encouraging and should be followed up with

The key is allowing Putin to save some face else he will feel that he has nothing to lose to continue the invasion
well obviously Russia withdrawing from Ukraine and ending the war would be the main condition to any kind of agreement. duh. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13840 on: February 27, 2022, 12:14:14 PM »
A binding treaty, passed by 2/3rds of the Senate?

OK,  then, we're deep into fantasies now.

Not remotely a plausible option.
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longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13841 on: February 27, 2022, 12:17:08 PM »
this conflict needs to stay between Ukraine and Russia

direct talks with the US would escalate the situation
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13842 on: February 27, 2022, 12:17:50 PM »
Idk why Russia is so pissy about NATO membership.  

Someone needs to hold up a mirror to Russia so it can see what it is.....the old drunk lady who was hot 50 years ago, but smells like booze and might steal your walllet.

No thanks.  Russia isn't appealing enough to covet by a hostile foreign country.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13843 on: February 27, 2022, 12:18:08 PM »
Quote from: longhorn320 on February 27, 2022, 12:17:08 PM
this conflict needs to stay between Ukraine and Russia

direct talks with the US would escalate the situation
TEAM AMERICA
WORLD POLICE
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13844 on: February 27, 2022, 12:19:27 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 27, 2022, 12:14:14 PM
A binding treaty, passed by 2/3rds of the Senate?

OK,  then, we're deep into fantasies now.

Not remotely a plausible option.
who says the US needs to sign any treaty? I never said that. Ukraine would be the one that needs to sign any treaty. And if the Biden administration tells them to sign, they will sign. That's what good little client states do.

US could easily force NATO to make it a policy to pause all expansion for the foreseeable future- and could have NATO bar Ukraine from ever joining. France and Germany would've came in their pants if we had done that a decade ago. They never wanted Ukraine in NATO in the first place.
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #13845 on: February 27, 2022, 12:24:53 PM »
OK, well, I'll pass on discussing the possibilities of the fantastic and exceedingly unlikely.

Russia will sit down and make Ukraine an opening offer completely unacceptable, and Ukraine will do the same.  
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