Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

I don't trust what anyone on either side says at this point, it would mostly be spin.

A priority for any attacker is the command and control of the other side.  It may well be the Ukrainian leaders are cut off from their commanders in the field for the most part.

Yeah I don't either.  

And some of us are so hopeful for positive news for Ukraine that we're biased to believe too much in that direction, anyway.  I certainly include myself here.

The truth often lies somewhere in the middle.  It may well be the Russian advance is slower than expected in some areas, and perhaps making progress in others.

I see the stock market is up strongly so far.

China is asshole.

THIS is something I thought we might see and hoped we wouldn't-- it could end up with direct NATO implications that I've been hoping could be avoided.


https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1497252322057011202?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1497252322057011202%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.surlyhorns.com%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fmarcorubio%2Fstatus%2F1497252322057011202%3Fs%3D21

just from watching the first two mins of that video, Zelensky is a complete dunce. He says he keeps asking 27 European leaders about NATO and keeps getting no response. DUH. DAWG....you guys have gotten no response on this for 14 years. You ain't coming into NATO any time soon. The moron that is Bush II in his infinite retarded wisdom pushed hard to force Ukraine into NATO in 2008- but France and Germany both blocked it. Instead a compromise was struck and NATO offered a phony future invitation- saying Ukraine will be members one day- and for 14 years straight there's never been a real plan of action or real date as to when they'd allowed in. NATO has kept saying Ukraine will be a member one day- while never offering them membership- all while saying Russia can't veto Ukraine from joining. It's just been a total mess. You'd think the new Ukraine government post 2014 coup would've just dropped the push to join NATO already and declared neutrality.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFHN-8Adn98

China is asshole.

and their dictator definitely doesn't look like winnie the pooh. 

NATO - Topic: NATO-Russia relations: the facts

NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 – and that has never changed. This “Open Door Policy” is enshrined in Article 10 of NATO’s founding treaty, which says “any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic” can apply for membership. Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. No treaty signed by the United States, Europe and Russia included provisions on NATO membership.
The idea of NATO expansion beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed. This was confirmed by Mikhail Gorbachev in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."
Declassified White House transcripts also reveal that, in 1997, Bill Clinton consistently refused Boris Yeltsin's offer of a 'gentlemen's agreement' that no former Soviet Republics would enter NATO: "I can't make commitments on behalf of NATO, and I'm not going to be in the position myself of vetoing NATO expansion with respect to any country, much less letting you or anyone else do so…NATO operates by consensus."

We've been over this 100 times already....you can't change history. There was never assurances on the limits of future NATO expansion in writing, and no one has ever claimed there was-  those assurances were in private conversations and private meetings at the highest levels of government. Declassified documents from 5 different governments prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. The evidence is incontrovertible. Those assurances were verbal, which is why the US/NATO has been able to weasel out of those assurances "hey, not in writing, doesn't count!".

And Gorbachev completely changed his tune- as he had said something completely different in the years prior to that statement in 2014. He might've been trying to save face for getting played like a fiddle by Bush I and Baker.

And even bringing up Boris Yeltsin is hilarious. Yeltsin was essentially a puppet of Clinton, and he was only in power because Clinton's administration helped rig that election in '96 in Yeltsin's favor. Clinton had Yeltsin by the balls, he was effectively Clinton's bitch.

And while US wields by far the most power over NATO- that last line is true- it does have to operate by consensus- and that reason is why Ukraine is not a part of NATO. US wasn't able to bully France and Germany into accepting Ukraine in '08. Bush II tried to force Ukraine into full NATO membership in 2008- but it was shot down by France and Germany in large part for fear of inciting Russia. A compromise was made that they would basically have an open ended invitation and that they will be future members- and NATO has repeated that promise/statement over the years- but has never actually told Ukraine or the world how or when they'd be joining.