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Topic: In other news ...

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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12040 on: February 01, 2022, 11:05:30 AM »
Yes it’s tough. Let’s use masks as an example.

if you’re like me and don’t have a bias and truly want to understand if a mask is going to help me and those around me or not-  what is the answer?

there is plenty of data, and unlimited opinions, on both sides of that issue still today. Honestly I don’t know who to believe.

The element that gives me pause is that a lot of the mouthpieces proclaiming masks masks masks are almost always caught off camera without masks masks masks. This eliminates any credibility they had with me because they clearly don’t believe in what they are preaching. 

and is the reverse true? Have I ever seen a talking head or political figure saying that masks are not effective, caught in private wearing a mask? Of course not.
One is the Governor of California. The other one has HIV. 


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bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12041 on: February 01, 2022, 11:08:45 AM »
Yes, I agree that more speech is better than censorship.

However, if you're trying to get people to avoid misinformation, well, it didn't work. Because of confirmation bias. If every opinion is out there, people will surround themselves with the opinion they want to believe, whether it's misinformation or not. And in a free and open debate, that places misinformation on the same level of legitimacy as everything else.

I'm not advocating the government do anything about it. But society is completely fractured because of it, and I don't think there is a "cure".
Pretty much this.

There is so, so, SO much information. One thing that is also helping is there’s a strong allure to being told, “everyone else is lying to you, and the folks that listen to them are suckers. But I, I have the truth, and you are smart and special for believing me when I tell you the world is super interesting and dramatic.”

It’s become a good tactic for audience and bubble building on all sides.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12042 on: February 01, 2022, 11:11:18 AM »
I think any respiratory disease that is spread by coughing, sneezing, expelling germs while talking, and any mask will somewhat dampen that spread.  The issue, to me, is that a mask is only slightly effective and was positioned as being more than that, along with the six feet thing, which also makes general sense.  We put our hand over our mouth when we cough, usually, for the same reason.

In some unmasked crowd with someone contagious, maybe we'd see 20 infections, while if the contagious person was masked, it might be 15, or even 10, but not zero.


Mdot21

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Mdot21

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Mdot21

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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12046 on: February 01, 2022, 11:56:57 AM »
misinformation.....ruh roh. fb/twitter were banning people who posted stuff counter to this official narrative for "misinformation". turns out....the official narrative you see that disgusting man who wears underwear with dickholes in them- Rachel Maddow was spewing misinformation - to millions of people. #CancelHer or better yet #CancelIt.


https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1488196414979067904?s=20&t=yC3KV6b2Svjp7AYNO82r0w



https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1488200533475315713?s=20&t=yC3KV6b2Svjp7AYNO82r0w

Honestbuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12047 on: February 01, 2022, 12:15:14 PM »
misinformation.....ruh roh. fb/twitter were banning people who posted stuff counter to this official narrative for "misinformation". turns out....the official narrative you see that disgusting man who wears underwear with dickholes in them- Rachel Maddow was spewing misinformation - to millions of people. #CancelHer or better yet #CancelIt.


https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1488196414979067904?s=20&t=yC3KV6b2Svjp7AYNO82r0w



https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1488200533475315713?s=20&t=yC3KV6b2Svjp7AYNO82r0w

Exactly!  Talk about misinformation!  Here is the crazy thing: that big lie or false narrative is STILL being pushed.  By MSM, and key, high level elected officials.  And then they have the audacity to claim any person who questions it as a spreader of misinformation.   

Science HA!  Don’t they know the majority of people with brain see right through that bullshit?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

rolltidefan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12048 on: February 01, 2022, 12:16:32 PM »
Yes it’s tough. Let’s use masks as an example.

if you’re like me and don’t have a bias and truly want to understand if a mask is going to help me and those around me or not-  what is the answer?

there is plenty of data, and unlimited opinions, on both sides of that issue still today. Honestly I don’t know who to believe.

The element that gives me pause is that a lot of the mouthpieces proclaiming masks masks masks are almost always caught off camera without masks masks masks. This eliminates any credibility they had with me because they clearly don’t believe in what they are preaching. 

and is the reverse true? Have I ever seen a talking head or political figure saying that masks are not effective, caught in private wearing a mask? Of course not.
masks are a great example of the public not understanding or often being willfully ignorant of the topic.

first, people generally don't understand that anecdotal evidence is fairly meaningless. your cousin that wore a mask all the time and still got it doesn't disprove that masks are effective at stopping the spread significantly. especially when empirical evidence has provided data repeatedly that shows it does.

it doesn't help that the "narrative" on masks changed, and fairly rapidly, from the scientific standpoint. which led a lot of people to distrust those espousing mask wearing as a preventative (eventually). and it's completely understandable at a glimpse. the problem is that the "narrative" changed because understanding of the science of effects from masks changed. it was first that n95 masks were effective and people panicked and bought them all out. they said stop doing that, they aren't effective when not worn correctly. 1 - people didn't hear that last part, 2 - vast majority of people have no idea what correctly wearing an n95 mask entails. then, research was done on general use masks, which they didn't think would stop the spread, but turns out it does... if everyone will wear them (or a significant enough %). and this is where anecdotal evidence became killer, because wearing a mask didn't prevent you (the wearer) from getting sick, it prevent you from spreading it to others. and if mask wearing cousin eddy got it, well it obviously doesn't work. it's not with 100% effectiveness, but significant enough to matter. but by this point, too much damage has been done. the story changed, however justified it was, and a large portion of influential people (politicians and talking heads) rebutted against it enough that it became a team specific talking point.

being able to separate an individual from their data/info is paramount. an individual is fallible, hypocritical, and irrational. they may believe fully in something, and yet at times go against that belief for some bs rationalization. how many family counselors have ruined their marriages, or lawyers broken laws, engineers approved insufficient products, accountants fudged numbers or forgot to file taxes, dr's that smoke, etc. doesn't mean that the info or whatever is wrong. doesn't mean they don't believe what they work for or the info the champion. but they rationalize decisions and make mistakes. a basketball team/coach that believes a 3 pointer and a layup are the only shots worth taking, because the data suggest they're the most valuable bang for buck based on % made, doesn't lose credibility when they take a mid-range jumper. the data certainly doesn't change. we should look at the info as separate from the individual.

and concerning the last part, maybe not with masks, but certainly with vaccines. both talking heads and politicians.

fwiw ,with regards to masks, it's looking like the "narrative" will likely change again soon. this time because the new variant (omicron b, i've seen it called) is so highly contagious it won't matter even in the prior context. at least early data is suggesting so. supposedly has a chance to be most infectious disease we know about. thankfully it's also looking to be relatively mild like omicron a.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12049 on: February 01, 2022, 12:21:21 PM »
masks are a great example of the public not understanding or often being willfully ignorant of the topic.

first, people generally don't understand that anecdotal evidence is fairly meaningless. your cousin that wore a mask all the time and still got it doesn't disprove that masks are effective at stopping the spread significantly. especially when empirical evidence has provided data repeatedly that shows it does.

it doesn't help that the "narrative" on masks changed, and fairly rapidly, from the scientific standpoint. which led a lot of people to distrust those espousing mask wearing as a preventative (eventually). and it's completely understandable at a glimpse. the problem is that the "narrative" changed because understanding of the science of effects from masks changed. it was first that n95 masks were effective and people panicked and bought them all out. they said stop doing that, they aren't effective when not worn correctly. 1 - people didn't hear that last part, 2 - vast majority of people have no idea what correctly wearing an n95 mask entails. then, research was done on general use masks, which they didn't think would stop the spread, but turns out it does... if everyone will wear them (or a significant enough %). and this is where anecdotal evidence became killer, because wearing a mask didn't prevent you (the wearer) from getting sick, it prevent you from spreading it to others. and if mask wearing cousin eddy got it, well it obviously doesn't work. it's not with 100% effectiveness, but significant enough to matter. but by this point, too much damage has been done. the story changed, however justified it was, and a large portion of influential people (politicians and talking heads) rebutted against it enough that it became a team specific talking point.

being able to separate an individual from their data/info is paramount. an individual is fallible, hypocritical, and irrational. they may believe fully in something, and yet at times go against that belief for some bs rationalization. how many family counselors have ruined their marriages, or lawyers broken laws, engineers approved insufficient products, accountants fudged numbers or forgot to file taxes, dr's that smoke, etc. doesn't mean that the info or whatever is wrong. doesn't mean they don't believe what they work for or the info the champion. but they rationalize decisions and make mistakes. a basketball team/coach that believes a 3 pointer and a layup are the only shots worth taking, because the data suggest they're the most valuable bang for buck based on % made, doesn't lose credibility when they take a mid-range jumper. the data certainly doesn't change. we should look at the info as separate from the individual.

and concerning the last part, maybe not with masks, but certainly with vaccines. both talking heads and politicians.

fwiw ,with regards to masks, it's looking like the "narrative" will likely change again soon. this time because the new variant (omicron b, i've seen it called) is so highly contagious it won't matter even in the prior context. at least early data is suggesting so. supposedly has a chance to be most infectious disease we know about. thankfully it's also looking to be relatively mild like omicron a.
Well articulated. 

but- What if you’re somebody like me who doesn’t pay any attention to anecdotal. Just factual data that is presented. I have seen plenty on both sides of this debate, including some pretty meaningful information of the harm that masks can do physically, socially, and psychologically.

now don’t get me wrong. I still bust out into laughter when I see somebody riding their bike down the street by themselves and they’re wearing a mask, or somebody walking alone on the beach hundreds of yards from any human and they are wearing a mask.  But I don’t make decisions or come to conclusions other than “has to be a liberal“. 😂😂😂
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12050 on: February 01, 2022, 12:23:14 PM »
One thing this has done is further damage the credibility of 'experts' in government or business.

I don't mean the Talking Heads on TV, but 'experts' in a broad sense.  

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12051 on: February 01, 2022, 12:34:33 PM »
One thing this has done is further damage the credibility of 'experts' in government or business.

I don't mean the Talking Heads on TV, but 'experts' in a broad sense. 
great point. expert #1 who has seen his credibility be shot and has been caught lying too many times to count - has been caught red-handed actively trying to plot and scheme to suppress and curtail any discussion of a lab-leak and try to do damage control and push a false public narrative that it HAD to come from nature - hasn't been forthright at all about gain of function research and NIH's funding of said research- and is THE person responsible for turning gain of function research funding back online after the Obama administration shut it down - none other than..... Dr. Anthony Fauci!

And when all this shit comes to light, the gov't response and this clowns response is to double down - not to fire him or for him to resign. People aren't dumb, and yet gov't and media likes to treat people as if they are. People see through the bullshit.

People lose complete faith in institutions when no one in said institutions gets punished or has to face any consequences. There are rules and consequences for regular folk while the rules and consequence largely don't apply to the people in power.

You want to restore faith in institutions and experts? A start would've been forcing Fauci to resign a long ass time ago.

rolltidefan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12052 on: February 01, 2022, 12:38:08 PM »
Well articulated. 

but- What if you’re somebody like me who doesn’t pay any attention to anecdotal. Just factual data that is presented. I have seen plenty on both sides of this debate, including some pretty meaningful information of the harm that masks can do physically, socially, and psychologically.

now don’t get me wrong. I still bust out into laughter when I see somebody riding their bike down the street by themselves and they’re wearing a mask, or somebody walking alone on the beach hundreds of yards from any human and they are wearing a mask.  But I don’t make decisions or come to conclusions other than “has to be a liberal“. 😂😂😂
i'd ask where are you seeing any reputable source suggesting masks are ineffective and/or harmful. because as far as i can tell, virtually all respected medical websites are suggesting to wear one.

as for the idiots wearing masks 24/7, agreed. they're just as dumb, but on the other side. they hear "masks work" and don't read further, where it says in certain situations, etc. i think my favorite i've seen was a dude with a gator on, mask on top, face shield on as well... in his own car, by himself. pretty sure he just came back from chernobyl or something.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #12053 on: February 01, 2022, 12:47:34 PM »
misinformation.....ruh roh. fb/twitter were banning people who posted stuff counter to this official narrative for "misinformation". turns out....the official narrative you see that disgusting man who wears underwear with dickholes in them- Rachel Maddow was spewing misinformation - to millions of people. #CancelHer or better yet #CancelIt.


https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1488196414979067904?s=20&t=yC3KV6b2Svjp7AYNO82r0w



https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1488200533475315713?s=20&t=yC3KV6b2Svjp7AYNO82r0w

It should be mentioned that at the time (March 2021), the data was showing that the vaccine was ~95% effective at preventing symptomatic illness. This was before Delta (possible R0 of ~7) and Omicron (possible R0 of ~10). 

The vaccine knocked the crap out of previous variants. There wasn't significant transmission within vaccinated people until later. I think that was twofold... One, immunity from infection waned as the antibody levels produced in response to the vaccine faded from the immune system after the second shot. Second, Delta appeared and was transmissible enough that it could overcome those antibody levels easily. 

 

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