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Topic: In other news ...

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MaximumSam

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1946 on: January 28, 2021, 12:29:25 PM »
Remember, the way to short stock is this:

  • "Borrow" shares from an owner.
  • Sell those shares immediately. You now owe the owner who lended you the share that number of shares, not the number of dollars those shares were worth.
  • The incentive for the owner of the shares is that you are paying them some sort of fee for being able to borrow their shares. That's where they make their money.
  • At some point you have to pay back the borrower, and you have to pay them back in shares, not in dollars. If the shares are worth less than what they were when you sold them, you pocket the difference (minus whatever fee you had to pay for the privilege of borrowing). If the shares are worth more than they were when you sold them, you have to buy them at whatever the current price is to return them.

Where a "short squeeze" occurs is that shorting a stock is essentially a margin trade. If the paper value of the shares is high enough that you trigger how much margin the lender of those shares is willing to grant you, they can give you a margin call and force you to sell the shares.

But for some of these hedge funds, if they can put off their creditors until the stock drops back down to reality, they might not actually have to sell at all, in which case it WON'T cause them to lose a dime. As long as they're still holding the shares, their losses are paper losses.

The large mutual funds (who are probably the lenders of those shares) want to keep that business--lending shares to hedge funds for a fee--more than they want a one-time windfall of a margin call and wiping out their customer base. Especially since those mutual funds know that GameStop isn't worth the current share price, so that if they do get their shares back from the hedge funds they are just going to have to sell them immediately anyway and drive the price right back down.

So Mdot is right--any price drop now is good for the hedge funds. Price drops now can help them hold off their creditors and not be forced into the margin call that puts those PAPER losses into ACTUAL losses.

Yes, obviously, any fund invested in shorting Gamestop wants the price to go down.  However, some big funds said they had closed out of Gamestop, so unless they are just lying, the amount of funds invested in shorting Gamestop has gone down.  And anyone buying Gamestop stock now will have less effect on hedge funds but much more effect on people who bought low to sell high. So to simply say Robinhood is doing a favor to hedge funds is too simplistic - anyone buying now is probably losing money, which is also something they might want to avoid. I guess we have that ethics in business thing going on right now.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1947 on: January 28, 2021, 12:32:41 PM »
mind you one of the biggest hedge funds to get squeezed in this entire thing is Melvin Capital- which is run by a guy named Gabe Plotkin. Melvin Capital had to raise $3 billion yesterday just to cover losses related to it's extreme and risky short bet of GameStop.

Where did Melvin raise said money? From another hedge fund called Citadel LLC run by a guy named Ken Griffin and another investment firm called Point72 run by a guy named Steven A Cohen. Plotkin was once Cohen's right hand man and used to work for Cohen at a hedge fund called SAC Capital- a hedge fund that got shut down by the SEC for all kinds of insider trading and market manipulation- Cohen avoided facing prosecution and going to court by willingly dissolving the hedge fund, agreeing not to run another hedge fund for x amount of years and also agreed if he ever got back in that game he wouldn't let other investors in like ever and that he'd use only his own money, and oh yeah also paying I believe almost $1.5 billion to the SEC in fines- the largest ever such fines on Wall Street by a single person- like EVER. Cohen is still worth like $20+ billion and he just bought the New York Mets. Plotkin sure learned from the best.

Oh and speaking of Citadel LLC/Ken Griffin- Griffin also founded a separate company with the name Citadel in it- Citadel Securities LLC. Citadel Securities literally handles all of Robinhoods trades for them....so go figure.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 12:40:54 PM by Mdot21 »

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1948 on: January 28, 2021, 12:33:22 PM »
could it be that Robinhood was simply trying to protect wouldbe Gamestop investors from getting in deeper

in a stock which was artificially inflated
No.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1949 on: January 28, 2021, 12:33:52 PM »
Yes, obviously, any fund invested in shorting Gamestop wants the price to go down.  However, some big funds said they had closed out of Gamestop, so unless they are just lying, the amount of funds invested in shorting Gamestop has gone down.  And anyone buying Gamestop stock now will have less effect on hedge funds but much more effect on people who bought low to sell high. So to simply say Robinhood is doing a favor to hedge funds is too simplistic - anyone buying now is probably losing money, which is also something they might want to avoid. I guess we have that ethics in business thing going on right now.
I do agree with that. Anyone jumping into Gamestop now is playing with fire. 

The good news is that I'm guessing a lot of these redditors who are buying Gamestop aren't exactly liquidating $500K positions to dump it all into pumping up a worthless stock. I'm sure a lot of them are buying one, two, maybe three shares and are going to be taught a moderately expensive--but not financially ruinous--lesson when they're caught holding the bag. 

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1950 on: January 28, 2021, 12:33:56 PM »
Yes, obviously, any fund invested in shorting Gamestop wants the price to go down.  However, some big funds said they had closed out of Gamestop, so unless they are just lying, the amount of funds invested in shorting Gamestop has gone down.  And anyone buying Gamestop stock now will have less effect on hedge funds but much more effect on people who bought low to sell high. So to simply say Robinhood is doing a favor to hedge funds is too simplistic - anyone buying now is probably losing money, which is also something they might want to avoid. I guess we have that ethics in business thing going on right now.
Wall Street hedge funds going on TV and lying! NO WAY. They have not closed out of GameStop. 

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1951 on: January 28, 2021, 12:35:09 PM »
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1952 on: January 28, 2021, 12:39:15 PM »
why
Because it was so extremely shorted. And if they did- why the co-ordinated effort to stop people from buying it? You can literally only sell it on apps like Robinhood, TD Ameritrade, and now WeBull. Which would naturally just do what- manipulate the price down.

Robinhood by the way- has all of it's trades handled by Citadel Securities LLC- a sister company of Citadel LLC- the monstrous hedge fund which just piggybacked off of the GameStop reddit run yesterday and then invested billions of dollars into Melvin Capital- one of the largest hedge funds on Wall Street that got burnt by their extreme and risky short bets.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1953 on: January 28, 2021, 12:47:38 PM »
this is also a very real possibility- and may be what is happening here...


https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1354843367549661187?s=20

longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1954 on: January 28, 2021, 01:02:02 PM »
Because it was so extremely shorted. And if they did- why the co-ordinated effort to stop people from buying it? You can literally only sell it on apps like Robinhood, TD Ameritrade, and now WeBull. Which would naturally just do what- manipulate the price down.

Robinhood by the way- has all of it's trades handled by Citadel Securities LLC- a sister company of Citadel LLC- the monstrous hedge fund which just piggybacked off of the GameStop reddit run yesterday and then invested billions of dollars into Melvin Capital- one of the largest hedge funds on Wall Street that got burnt by their extreme and risky short bets.
Actually I use TD Ameritrade as my broker and have seen no manipulation of any stock

could it be a simple situation where a hedge fund saw a stock way over valued and decided shorting was a good strategy

be careful here cause the market reacts to the public buying sentiment whatever that may be

unless Gamestop put out fraudulent information this may be entirely above board

can the little guy get hurt from investing in a stock over valued - yes

do big investors short over valued stocks causing them to decrease in price - yes

all legal
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Cincydawg

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longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1956 on: January 28, 2021, 01:27:04 PM »
GameStop stock falls 20%, halted several times after brokers place restrictions on trades (cnbc.com)


as stated earlier this is very common for highly volatile stocks

its not to manipulate the stock but as a cooling off period to protect the investor
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1957 on: January 28, 2021, 01:33:52 PM »
GameStop stock falls 20%, halted several times after brokers place restrictions on trades (cnbc.com)
Robinhood has roughly 15 million active users. Over half of their uses had GameStop stock. That's at least 7.5 million people.

Well- when you stop those people from buying- and Robinhood wasn't nearly the only trading platform which wouldn't allow users to buy GameStop- and only allow them to sell it- what happens- the price will go down because a lot of people will panic and do what- sell it.

Looks like the co-ordinated effort from Wall Street with Robinhood and other retail trading platforms to manipulate the market and push the stock down worked.

Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1958 on: January 28, 2021, 01:35:15 PM »
as stated earlier this is very common for highly volatile stocks

its not to manipulate the stock but as a cooling off period to protect the investor
Lol. No. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #1959 on: January 28, 2021, 01:35:23 PM »
Why Gamestop though?  Why was it being (allegedly?) shorted?  Random/strictly a numbers thing or something specific about the company itself (not numbers-related)?
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