header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: In other news ...

 (Read 1001091 times)

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37556
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5166 on: April 23, 2021, 11:23:26 AM »
unless they're taking on Bama
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5167 on: April 23, 2021, 11:49:02 AM »
I figure the "betting public" often sides with Name Teams in bowl season.  That sways the odds, though I figure the Smart Guys balance that out to advantage.

The odds really are pretty good.  

But betting against the masses is often a good idea.

The SEC does have a lot of near Blue Blood teams historically, which is one reason they get some "consideration" in polling.

LSU 
Auburn
UGA
Florida
Tennessee (I know they are down)

Arkansas and Missouri have some decent history.  If they start out say 7-1, they get consideration also.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12207
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5168 on: April 23, 2021, 11:53:19 AM »
But betting against the masses is often a good idea.
I have a former coworker who was a bookie on the side, and we were talking about this.

He said that when you see a line that is getting bet heavily enough one direction that it's moving the line, bet the opposite way. The masses think they're smarter than the oddsmakers, and it's usually not the case. 

I'd love to see if there is actually any truth to that, though. 

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17702
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5169 on: April 23, 2021, 11:55:06 AM »
I have a former coworker who was a bookie on the side, and we were talking about this.

He said that when you see a line that is getting bet heavily enough one direction that it's moving the line, bet the opposite way. The masses think they're smarter than the oddsmakers, and it's usually not the case.

I'd love to see if there is actually any truth to that, though.

Sounds like something bookies say to get the betting public to place more bets. ;)


medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5170 on: April 23, 2021, 11:55:18 AM »
Yeah, sports betting is just like poker -- a skill game with a high variance due to inherent luck.

It's also like poker in that the house doesn't care who wins. In sports betting the goal is simply to have 50/50 betting on each side of a wager, and in poker it's just to have action going. Sports betting it's the vig where the house makes its money, poker it's the rake.

The problem with sports betting, though, is that you can't make money with a 1-2% advantage, because you need to win 55%+ of your bets to beat the vig. Which means the skill isn't in betting every game and hoping that you can win >55%, it's in identifying where the spread or O/U is significantly wrong and that you can figure that out with >55% certainty.

Way back in 2006 I spent an entire season tracking picks on my old blog. I picked every Big Ten game--minus Purdue because I couldn't separate emotions--which is to say I *picked* Purdue but didn't count it to my season stats because I knew I couldn't be objective... I also would look around at the national scene and pick games where I thought there was something particularly interesting about the matchup or the line.

Over the course of a season, I would pick 8-10 games per week, and I finished the year with a 62.5% record against the spread. Which I was, and am, pretty proud of.

The problem was that when I did the math, if I had been betting $100/game, over 3+ months of work my entire winnings for the year would have been ~$1K. Based on the number of hours of analysis, the risk, etc, I thought to myself "this is a grind--it's just not worth it."
I had the same realization in reverse during my first year at Ohio State. A couple of wannabe gangsters shared a room down the hall from me and, fancying themselves to be Henry Hill they were booking bets. From them I learned how it worked and that the one requisite to being a bookie was to have a bigger bookie that you could pass your potential losers onto.

Big sports books don't pass their losers on, they are simply big enough to absorb a loss now and then but if you are a bookie on a campus you need a bigger bookie so that if all of your betters take the local school in a game you don't lose your a$$ if they win.

These guys thought they could absorb their losses but the couldn't and the had to drop out of school to get jobs because of all the money they lost.

Anyway, once I had the business figured out I contemplated getting into it. The vig is usually 10% but it is effectively only charged to the losers so the bookie theoretically makes 5% of the total bet through him. Example:

Suppose @betarhoalphadelta bets $100 on Purdue+11.5 through me and @Brutus Buckeye bets $100 on tOSU-11.5 through me. No matter what happens one will win and one will lose so I will owe $100 to the winner and be owed $110 by the loser so I'll make $10 or 5% of the $200 that I booked. I didn't get involved because I immediately recognized a number of problems for the bookie:
  • Credit/collections: Suppose I have 10 people bet $100 each on PU and another 10 bet $100 each on tOSU. I'll owe $1,000 to the 10 winners and be owed $1,100 by the 10 losers so I'll make $100 but only if everyone pays me. If one of the losers skips town I'll collect $990 from the other losers, pay $1,000 to the winners, and be out $10. This is why the mob has to rough people up.
  • Unbalanced bets: In the above examples I had equal bets so I made money either way but instead if I have 15 people bet $100 each on tOSU and only five bet $100 each on PU then I have a problem. If PU covers I get $1,650 from the 15 losers and owe $500 to the five winners so I'm up $1,150 but if tOSU covers I get $550 from the five losers and owe $1,500 to the 15 winners so I'm out $950. In order to cover this I have to call my bigger bookie and bet between $950 and $1,045 on tOSU. That severely reduces my profit margin because the unbalanced bets effectively don't count towards that 5% that I would make on bets placed through me.
  • Volume: Even with no collections problems and perfectly balanced bets the bookie still only makes 5% of the total bet through him. To make $500 a week you need $10,000 a week in 100% collectible and perfectly balanced bets. At $50-$100 per bet/gambler that is 100-200 gamblers. That strikes me as an immense amount of effort and risk to make $500 a week.


FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37556
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5171 on: April 23, 2021, 11:59:57 AM »
for Badge..............


May be an image of 1 person and text that says 'HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE GET SHOTIN CHICAGO CunHub ር WE NEVER HEAR WHAT KIND OF GUN WAS USED'
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

longhorn320

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 9338
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5172 on: April 23, 2021, 12:08:54 PM »
I have a former coworker who was a bookie on the side, and we were talking about this.

He said that when you see a line that is getting bet heavily enough one direction that it's moving the line, bet the opposite way. The masses think they're smarter than the oddsmakers, and it's usually not the case.

I'd love to see if there is actually any truth to that, though.
the goal of the bookie is to establish a line that will go 50/50 in betting not to actually forecast the outcome of a game

Thats why I like the initial line more then later lines
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5173 on: April 23, 2021, 12:10:24 PM »
I get the impression that the various "schemes" to "Beat the Odds" are WORK, for relatively little payout.

If something were simple and easy, the "market" would already have reacted to it and compensated accordingly.  It reminds me of GRQ schemes in the stock market, based off some analytic gizmo.




medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5174 on: April 23, 2021, 12:11:36 PM »
One experience with sports betting:

I was at tOSU when the first Tyson/Holyfield fight happened (not the ear, that was Tyson/HolyfieldII). Tyson was a huge favorite so Holyfield was a 10:1 underdog. 

If you remember the era, Tyson had won a bunch of fights with early knockouts and fans were getting angry that they paid $100 PPV for the fight and ended up seeing only a round or two. I remember that in one case the PPV price ended up being $1/second. 

Faced with those complaints the PPV for this fight had a built in maximum per round so that buyers would get a discount if the fight ended quickly. 

I'm naturally a cynic so when I saw that I figured the Tyson would lose because people were getting bored with him always dominating and the sport (aka Don King) needed variety to generate interest. Consequently, I scrounged up $100 and had my roommate call his bookie to place a $100 bet on Holyfield at 10:1. 

My roommate's bookie refused the bet. I understand why. Basically nobody bets $100 to win $10 in that situation so he had no balancing bets and didn't want to have to pay me a grand if Holyfield won, which he did by TKO in the 11th round.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37556
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5175 on: April 23, 2021, 12:14:20 PM »
small time Bookie
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

longhorn320

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 9338
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5176 on: April 23, 2021, 12:17:27 PM »
I get the impression that the various "schemes" to "Beat the Odds" are WORK, for relatively little payout.

If something were simple and easy, the "market" would already have reacted to it and compensated accordingly.  It reminds me of GRQ schemes in the stock market, based off some analytic gizmo.




I do a lot of swing trading which means buying a stock and hopefully when the price goes up to a certain point 5% or 10% selling

the best formula Ive found is one which utilizes trading volume

when a stocks trading volume all of a sudden jumps something is going on so I center on those stocks and if a follow through goal is hit they become prime candidates for purchase

coarse there are several other things that need to be present but volume is a big tell
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5177 on: April 23, 2021, 12:28:57 PM »
More on being a cynic:

Upthread I mentioned that I like roulette when I'm in a casino because of the time issue. I said this in response to @longhorn320 's comment.

There is another reason, first some background:

There are 38 spaces on a roulette wheel and 38 individual numbers you can bet:

  • 0 and 00 are green
  • 1-36 are half red and half black

All payouts are set such that it would be "fair" (ie, the house would make nothing) if there were 36 rather than 38 spots. 

If 38 betters each bet $10 on a single number with no overlap then there will be $380 on the table. After each spin the casino will give $360 to the one winner and pocket $20.

In addition to the individual numbers you can also bet other things such as:
  • Black or Red: pays 1:1
  • Even or odd: pays 1:1
  • First, second, or third 12 (1-12, 13-24, 25-36): pays 2:1
  • Etc

The thing I noticed when I first encountered this game was that the casino makes most of their money when the wheel lands on one of the green spots. It doesn't matter for the individual numbers because you can bet green but it matters for the other bets, here is why:

Suppose that @longhorn320 and I are betting red and black respectively in equal amounts. When red hits they give my money to him.  When black hits they give his money to me. They keep both of our money when green hits. It is the same basic concept for the other bets.

Being a cynic I've always suspected that if the casino could make the green spaces an imperceptible millimeter or two wider, they would. Thus, I always bet green and it's usually worked pretty well for me.


MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13101
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5178 on: April 23, 2021, 12:41:27 PM »
See they are changing college football OT. 1st OT is the same, 2nd OT you must go for 2, after that the teams alternate 2 point conversions plays. 

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18874
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #5179 on: April 23, 2021, 12:52:35 PM »
I want to be brave one year and just bet the same amount on games I'm most certain about, but the swings scare me.  I have confidence I'd come out well ahead of 55% threshold easily.  But the bad runs would be too stressful.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.