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Topic: How do you know what you think you know?

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #196 on: March 10, 2025, 12:09:36 PM »
We, as in human beings, are certainly smart enough to "live in harmony with nature", we just don't often as not.  "We" recognize we need to preserve many aspects of our environment and have made expensive and lengthy attempts to do so.

Our environment in the US today is a good deal better than it was in 1970.
It has nothing to do with "the environment." 

We damn rivers.  We produce infinite trash.  We flatten swaths of land to build homes.  We fill in swamps and marshes.  We do whatever the fuck we want.  
We build below sea level.  We build multi-million person cities in the desert.  Our most populace state is prone to wildfires, earthquakes, and mudslides.  

So if we're smart enough to live in harmony with nature, we're dumb enough not to.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #197 on: March 10, 2025, 12:13:40 PM »
It has nothing to do with "the environment."

We damn rivers.  We produce infinite trash.  We flatten swaths of land to build homes.  We fill in swamps and marshes.  We do whatever the fuck we want. 
We build below sea level.  We build multi-million person cities in the desert.  Our most populace state is prone to wildfires, earthquakes, and mudslides. 
I tend to think of damning rivers and producing trash and other feats of engineering as having environmental impacts and being part of the environment.

I also think our environment has improved overall since 1970.  That is of course debateable, it has not improved in all respects.  This "living with nature" notion, and it just a vague notion, is not possible with a population of 8+ billion.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #198 on: March 10, 2025, 12:37:16 PM »
120 billion other mammals seem to do it just fine.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #199 on: March 10, 2025, 12:39:40 PM »
How many are even half as large as a human being?

Food is an obvious core issue with larger mammals.  A vole can get by with a tiny amount.  We can't.  

I'm sure humanity could do better, but it's not clear to me how, exactly, beyond some vague notional aspirations.

FearlessF

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #200 on: March 10, 2025, 01:09:11 PM »
120 billion other mammals seem to do it just fine.
some of those mammals live in Our most populace state and are prone to wildfires, earthquakes, and mudslides. 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #201 on: March 10, 2025, 01:14:06 PM »
My question is by what standard.  What is the basis of what is ethical.  Am I the basis.  Is the majority the standard. How do we decide what is good and ethical?  What is a bad person what is a good person.  How do we decide. 

This is why we have classes and books on ethics but still can't agrees by what standard.
Well, that's a REALLY interesting question... The way I see it there are two possibilities:

  • Ethics / morality are objectively defined by some source outside of us as humans. Our goal is to understand from the revelations of that source what is ethical. 
  • Ethics / morality are a construct that we must create based on our nature to serve us. Our goal is to deduce and promulgate an ethical structure the works to further the interests of a successful society. 

Obviously I think you were leading to #1 for obvious reasons, and for obvious reasons I reject that. So let's table it... If there's a God who defines what is ethical and moral, then that option is satisfied and all we need to do is figure out what God wants. 

The second option, IMHO, is a much richer area for philosophical discussion. If we have to dig it out of the dirt ourselves, the question becomes... How? 

I think we need to think about a couple of things. First is that humans are social animals. As discussed in this thread, it's not like we've got vicious teeth or claws. We have a significant limitation in that the period of childhood and adolescence is quite extended, which means that to further the species we need to have a structure where you can be safely raised at least into teenaged years, which also means that a single parent cannot both raise children and also leave those children to hunt for food. So we organize into groups... We wouldn't survive otherwise. So a part of "ethics" has to involve how we behave within a group. 

We also have a lot of traits that may serve us well in some areas but not in others. For example, we are omnivores and we needed to have a capacity for violence (hunting) in order to provide sustenance. But violence within the group harms the group. As another, we have a natural capability of attachment to our mate and our children that makes us want to provide for them. But that can also lead to jealousy and division if someone else wants to copulate with our mate or we want to copulate with someone else's. As a third, we have a VERY natural and IMHO innate value in ownership and property. But we likewise have a tendency towards jealousy and comparison and to organize ourselves in groups where a certain level of "status" might involve said property--which makes us want more property than others, and could again lead to division/violence in the case of jealousy and or outright stealing. 

So... We need an ethics which harnesses all the good stuff in our nature to promote a peaceful and prosperous society, and restrains the bad stuff to avoid things which have the capability to interfere with same. 

If there's interest in talking further about what properties that ethical system could/should have, we can. If I've bored the shit out of everyone, then we can table that...





Riffraft

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #202 on: March 10, 2025, 01:19:40 PM »
Heinlein in one of his books wrote something like this.  A man loves the dam that the beaver makes for the beaver's purposes, but hates the dam that a man makes for man's purposes. Ultimately this is just a form of self-hatred and the hatred of humanity.

FearlessF

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #203 on: March 10, 2025, 01:24:17 PM »
Heinlein knew OAM!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #204 on: March 10, 2025, 01:36:19 PM »
There can also be large difference between what is good for an individual, what is good for a family, what is good for a community, what is good for society, and what is good for "all mankind."

If the goal is to promote the species, then there is a conceivable ethical space where the active elimination of weakness, either physical or mental or both, is the proper and "good" thing to do, for homo sapiens at large.

I could go on about how natural selection once took care of this for us, but the establishment of "civilization" has effectively defeated it... but that's another post and another topic. :)


Riffraft

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #205 on: March 10, 2025, 01:40:24 PM »
Well, that's a REALLY interesting question... The way I see it there are two possibilities:

  • Ethics / morality are objectively defined by some source outside of us as humans. Our goal is to understand from the revelations of that source what is ethical.
  • Ethics / morality are a construct that we must create based on our nature to serve us. Our goal is to deduce and promulgate an ethical structure the works to further the interests of a successful society.

Obviously I think you were leading to #1 for obvious reasons, and for obvious reasons I reject that. So let's table it... If there's a God who defines what is ethical and moral, then that option is satisfied and all we need to do is figure out what God wants.

The second option, IMHO, is a much richer area for philosophical discussion. If we have to dig it out of the dirt ourselves, the question becomes... How?

I think we need to think about a couple of things. First is that humans are social animals. As discussed in this thread, it's not like we've got vicious teeth or claws. We have a significant limitation in that the period of childhood and adolescence is quite extended, which means that to further the species we need to have a structure where you can be safely raised at least into teenaged years, which also means that a single parent cannot both raise children and also leave those children to hunt for food. So we organize into groups... We wouldn't survive otherwise. So a part of "ethics" has to involve how we behave within a group.

We also have a lot of traits that may serve us well in some areas but not in others. For example, we are omnivores and we needed to have a capacity for violence (hunting) in order to provide sustenance. But violence within the group harms the group. As another, we have a natural capability of attachment to our mate and our children that makes us want to provide for them. But that can also lead to jealousy and division if someone else wants to copulate with our mate or we want to copulate with someone else's. As a third, we have a VERY natural and IMHO innate value in ownership and property. But we likewise have a tendency towards jealousy and comparison and to organize ourselves in groups where a certain level of "status" might involve said property--which makes us want more property than others, and could again lead to division/violence in the case of jealousy and or outright stealing.

So... We need an ethics which harnesses all the good stuff in our nature to promote a peaceful and prosperous society, and restrains the bad stuff to avoid things which have the capability to interfere with same.

If there's interest in talking further about what properties that ethical system could/should have, we can. If I've bored the shit out of everyone, then we can table that...




My days of writing disertations on subject such as this are long over.  You seem to be advocating for the "greater good" basis.  THe problem with the greater good is why should I accept that the greater good is what is good, particularly if it doesn't help me and in fact might hurt me.  Trying to remember terminology from my ethics courses but it has been over 40 years.

Ultimately greater good can and does result in the tyranny of the majority.  As aregued in Star Trek II, does the need of the many outweight the needs of the few or the one. Is it right when I have 2 pigs and you have no pigs for you to take one of my pigs because it is for the greater good.  We would say no, unless there is a government and have society take it from me.  Which is why libertarians would say that most forms of taxation are legalized theft. 

Obviously there is most to that model than that, but as I said my days of writing novels are over.

The other thing to look is saying that you taking my pig is wrong in the first place has no basis for it being wrong, if there is no objective standard.  You need to eat, you have the "right" to life so how can it be wrong? Do you know the story of "Alive"  the rugby team thalt crashed in the Andes and lived off the dead people flesh.  Most would say that there was nothing wrong with what they did.  But what if no one had died and instead one of them actually killed one of them to eat, so the rest could live. Is that wrong?  How about if they took a vote to decide who to kill?  How about if they held a lottery?

BTW you are right I am arguing for an objective (as much as possible) to determine how we should live. 



betarhoalphadelta

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #206 on: March 10, 2025, 02:30:31 PM »
My days of writing disertations on subject such as this are long over.  You seem to be advocating for the "greater good" basis.  THe problem with the greater good is why should I accept that the greater good is what is good, particularly if it doesn't help me and in fact might hurt me.  Trying to remember terminology from my ethics courses but it has been over 40 years.

Ultimately greater good can and does result in the tyranny of the majority.  As aregued in Star Trek II, does the need of the many outweight the needs of the few or the one. Is it right when I have 2 pigs and you have no pigs for you to take one of my pigs because it is for the greater good.  We would say no, unless there is a government and have society take it from me.  Which is why libertarians would say that most forms of taxation are legalized theft.

Obviously there is most to that model than that, but as I said my days of writing novels are over.

The other thing to look is saying that you taking my pig is wrong in the first place has no basis for it being wrong, if there is no objective standard.  You need to eat, you have the "right" to life so how can it be wrong? Do you know the story of "Alive"  the rugby team thalt crashed in the Andes and lived off the dead people flesh.  Most would say that there was nothing wrong with what they did.  But what if no one had died and instead one of them actually killed one of them to eat, so the rest could live. Is that wrong?  How about if they took a vote to decide who to kill?  How about if they held a lottery?

BTW you are right I am arguing for an objective (as much as possible) to determine how we should live.
I'm not advocating for the "greater good" basis, per se. IMHO I'm looking for an ethical system that is most consistent with human nature. 

I don't think we want to devolve into a pure utilitarianism society. I don't think THAT fits human nature, because I think humanity works best when we build a structure that believes in the existence of, and the protection of, human rights and civil liberties. Many of our biggest failings as a species occurred either before we really started to do that, or in countries which don't do that now. (Which isn't to say that we're not failing, in many ways, every day now.) In pure utilitarianism, individual rights are held in lower esteem than "the greater good", and I think that leads to dark places. 

So it's more of a thought experiment. Assuming that there is no true "objective" standard, but that we have the mirror of human nature to reflect against:

  • Where, ethically, are we doing things right in the modern era? 
  • Where, ethically, are we at risk of going off the rails in the modern era? 

For example, I would argue that we're at risk of going off the rails with divisive identity politics. We seem, as a society, to be segmenting across various identities (race, class, religion, sex, orientation/gender, political party, etc) and to spend a tremendous amount of time and effort both highlighting our differences and trying to compete for which group is most oppressed/aggrieved. We've invented the concept of "micro-aggressions" for when you're actually not oppressed in any actual way but you're supposed to feel aggrieved.  

Ergo, I think we took the concept of being different and respecting our differences in the wrong direction. Instead of acknowledging and celebrating our differences while focusing on the many things that we share, we've increasingly used it to "other" anyone who isn't exactly like ourselves. 

And that's a human nature thing. Going back to our earliest societies there was always "us" and the "out-group/other". That is something that was perhaps necessary back in the days when we were small bands of hunter-gatherer tribes. Anyone outside of your tribe could not be trusted and it was probably useful to "other" them. But IMHO "othering" in modern society is one of the "bad things" in human nature that we should be trying to restrain. Instead, we seem to increasingly be leaning into encouraging it. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #207 on: March 10, 2025, 02:45:32 PM »
Heinlein in one of his books wrote something like this.  A man loves the dam that the beaver makes for the beaver's purposes, but hates the dam that a man makes for man's purposes. Ultimately this is just a form of self-hatred and the hatred of humanity.
lol
Yes, let's compare something small and temporary with what we do.  

You guys can just post something like "nana nana boo boo" instead of these absurdly stupid counterpoints.  It'll save you time.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #208 on: March 10, 2025, 02:56:57 PM »
the difference is quite obvious

Beavers are innocent and good
Humans are evil and corrupt, seeking power and $$$ by taking advantage of others

especially anyone successful enough to become a billionaire 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: How do you know what you think you know?
« Reply #209 on: March 10, 2025, 03:10:09 PM »
Sorry I'm not the caricature you think I am.  I don't hate humanity, it's just really frustrating that the oblivious lack mirrors.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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