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Topic: How do you know what you think you know?
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Cincydawg · « **Reply #28 on:** March 04, 2025, 02:59:57 PM »

How to be a better philosopher:

“It is important to learn not to be angry with opinions different from your own, but to set to work understanding how they come about. If, after you have understood them, they still seem false, you can then combat them much more effectually than if you had continued to be merely horrified. I am not suggesting that the philosopher should have no feelings; the man who has no feelings, if there be such a man, does nothing, and therefore achieves nothing.

No man can hope to become a good philosopher unless he has certain feelings which are not very common. He must have an intense desire to understand the world, as far as that is possible; and for the sake of understanding, he must be willing to overcome those narrownesses of outlook that make a correct perception impossible.

He must learn to think and feel, not as a member of this or that group, but as just a human being. If he could, he would divest himself of the limitations to which he is subject as a human being. If he could perceive the world as a Martian or an inhabitant of Sirius, if he could see it as it seems to a creature that lives for a day and also as it would seem to one that lived for a million years, he would be a better philosopher.”

— Bertrand Russell, The Art of Philosophizing and other Essays (1942), Essay I: The Art of Rational Conjecture, pp. 23-4

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #29 on:** March 04, 2025, 03:06:30 PM »

I don't consider Bertrand Russell to be a very good philosopher

(though he does say a few good things here in this quote)

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2025, 04:17:41 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on March 04, 2025, 02:34:11 PM

This is, to me, a very interesting question. For example, on "FACEBOOK" (I know) I have been assaulted (Do you know what I mean by assaulted?) by adds demeaning "seed oils". (The sites are of course selling other kinds of oils.) OK, so I wonder, what's amiss with Canola oil etc.? I resort to ... google and the internet. I read some "experts" on authoritative sites, and conclude seed oils pretty much are OK, probably better than other kinds, but not good to ingest in excess.

Are those experts right? How can I know? I assess their arguments with what little else I think I know (which also is mostly from experts). Is HFC pure poison "one molecule away from plastic"? Well, the latter claim is bizarre and false, but then, I learned all that stuff back when "from experts".

I had a response but the site ate it

Short version is you can't know in the epistemic sense. But you still have to make a decision. In this: do I continue consuming seed oils, or do I actively work to reduce/eliminate them from my diet?

To make that decision, you should use what I say above--read and evaluate both sides, and try to go to primary sources/evidence when available. Get as much information as possible, make the best decision you can, and then you have to live with the consequences.

Or you can do what most people do--pick what you actually want to do, claim the side that's on your side is right, and then claim "the science" supports what you wanted to do in the first place.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2025, 04:34:56 PM »

Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on March 04, 2025, 04:17:41 PM

Short version is you can't know in the epistemic sense. But you still have to make a decision. In this: do I continue consuming seed oils, or do I actively work to reduce/eliminate them from my diet?

Further prompt for anyone participating:

Do you have any rules you think are good for testing your beliefs?

In this case, maybe it would be something like "I'll cut out seed oils for 3 months and make a log/journal of how I'm feeling" (or whatever measurable thing seed oils is supposed to be bad for).*

*drs. always want patients to do stuff like that when trying medications, dietary changes, etc. lolz, they won't.

FearlessF · « **Reply #32 on:** March 04, 2025, 04:40:46 PM »

fads like seed oils are a wait and see for me
If it really works, a large majority will be using them in a few years and doctors will be endorsing them and walmart will be selling them

utee94 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 04, 2025, 04:41:55 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on March 04, 2025, 04:34:56 PM

Further prompt for anyone participating:

Do you have any rules you think are good for testing your beliefs?

In this case, maybe it would be something like "I'll cut out seed oils for 3 months and make a log/journal of how I'm feeling" (or whatever measurable thing seed oils is supposed to be bad for).*

*drs. always want patients to do stuff like that when trying medications, dietary changes, etc. lolz, they won't.

This is true, but it's also true that patients aren't necessarily equipped to determine if they "feel better" based on making some suggested change, they just aren't that in-tune with their body. I'm like this, and it drives my PT wife crazy. She'll suggest I make some change to posture or gait or whatever it might be, and then ask me if it feels better. I'm always like... I guess? I don't know...

This is especially true if there was no proximal acute driving function in the first place. If I'm not actively experiencing discomfort or pain or fatigue or whatever the symptom is supposed to be, from eating seed oils, then how will I know if cutting them out is producing a better outcome. Scientifically, biologically, it might very well be true. But if I can't feel a significant discernable difference, then how would I know?

Now if it's something that's going to show up in lab work over time, that's a different case.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #34 on:** March 04, 2025, 04:51:24 PM »

Quote from: utee94 on March 04, 2025, 04:41:55 PM

This is true, but it's also true that patients aren't necessarily equipped to determine if they "feel better" based on making some suggested change, they just aren't that in-tune with their body. I'm like this, and it drives my PT wife crazy. She'll suggest I make some change to posture or gait or whatever it might be, and then ask me if it feels better. I'm always like... I guess? I don't know...

This is especially true if there was no proximal acute driving function in the first place. If I'm not actively experiencing discomfort or pain or fatigue or whatever the symptom is supposed to be, from eating seed oils, then how will I know if cutting them out is producing a better outcome. Scientifically, biologically, it might very well be true. But if I can't feel a significant discernable difference, then how would I know?

Now if it's something that's going to show up in lab work over time, that's a different case.

I don't know, that was probably a bad example. I have no idea in what way seed oils are supposed to be bad for me, and frankly I don't really know what they are. Just an example to illustrate my question that probably went awry.

Also, I should be clear that drs. mainly want patients to keep logs of their blood pressure, heart rate, and weight. Totally agree and can tell you from experience, patients suck at evaluating almost everything, even when they're hurting. Wife asks people stuff like "where are you hurting?" and the number of people is staggering who say stuff like "Um....well, I'm not sure. Just....kinda.....'round here somewhere, I guess." *waves hand frantically over half their body* Even on the objectively measurable stuff, they have......problems. People come in with their "logs" and stuff like "10:50 a.m., HR 270/150." I'm like um....okay, so you exploded, died, and now you're back. Would you a) like to try that again, or B) tell me how the afterlife was? They're like "Well....that's what my BP cuff said....." Get a new cuff, lady, or some glasses.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #35 on:** March 04, 2025, 07:50:55 PM »

People act in their own best interests, and sometimes they do so while acting like they're doing you a favor. It takes ideology for them to act against their own interests.
Money is usually the "why" with most everything.
Genuine innocence is so rare that it's not statistically significant.
News isn't news anymore. It's an ad revenue vehicle, designed to get as many clicks and eyeballs as possible (same as most other things nowadays).

The "pick a side" crowd is stupid and making others stupid. They're largely the aforementioned crowd allergic to saying, "I don't know." Aka most religious types. I'm interjecting that here because it fits, not as a dig.

I seek out as many real, prudent people as I can. People who treat each interaction as an individual thing, and not just a generic thing to do. A verbal tennis partner is fun and sexy. Someone who isn't just waiting for their turn to talk is nice. They're rare.

I don't care for the masses. I irks me when people are set in their ways. I'm really not a fan of someone who has a strong opinion, but hasn't spent much time pondering the issue. That's a dull mind. 2-dimensional thinking.

I'm not some better-than-thou genius person or anything, I just feel like I take things as they are, not as I might assume they may be.
I'm pretty well-versed in philosophy and really align with genuine Epicureanism (not Hedonism) and some stoicism. Religion is a silly, historical crutch to fill in the ever-decreasing gaps in our understanding. I find this obvious and am bewildered why we cling to it.

Idk what else to include. I doubt any of the above surprises anyone.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #36 on:** March 05, 2025, 11:34:23 AM »

OAM, let me preface that I'm saying this with all due respect, because I actually think you're a pretty intelligent guy...

But you might be the poster child for spouting off things that you "know" that just ain't so.

I.e. I would sincerely seek your input on things like the educational system since you live and work in it daily, and on things related to college football history as you've immersed yourself in it. But at the same time your thoughts on things like technology or what companies should do, etc, is just so far off base that it's not even funny.

Case in point--to avoid politics--our previous discussions about EVs and battery swaps. You behaved in a tremendously confident manner that battery swaps were what the industry absolutely needed and they were the future. You were dismissive of every engineering-based objection to your opinion.

And when finally cornered, you retreated to "well when battery technology progresses enough that batteries are small enough to be easily swapped, it'll work." Which is also questionable, because by the time that happens--if ever, as it's probably decades away in the best case--the fast charging infrastructure and ability for people to charge where they reside will likely be so ubiquitous that battery swaps won't be necessary.

Perhaps, a little more humility about your knowledge on topics that AREN'T within your area of expertise would go a long way on this board.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #37 on:** March 05, 2025, 12:10:18 PM »

I like to travel, obviously, I usually read up on some place we're going to visit, especially if it's "exotic", like stuff in Asia. Things are obviously different from here, while also many things are remarkably the same. So, I read up on say, Seoul, and find my readings in general to be pretty accurate. I won't read that it's warm and balmy in March for example and be shocked when it's freezing. So, this sort of stuff, travel information, seems to me to be pretty reliable.

The "news" about quantative items is reliable, the stock market, baseball scores, we all trust these things. We know the weather is a projection and may be wrong, but it's usually pretty close. I think most of the news from any half way credible source is pretty accurate, the parts that are not are because of exclusion (they ignore something), or obvious bias (the throw in "analysis" or take a quote out of context). Anything "political" obviously can be highly biased. I adjust for this personally by reading from a number of different news sites, not just some place that highlights what I want to read.

We had some discussion about the "measles outbreak", one person saying it's not really an anything, I looked into it a bit and realize, IMHO, it is a thing, worth reporting. The term "outbreak" has a specific definition in this case, and the disease is SO contagious that a few cases warrant "news". It is useful, I think, to add some "context", as in, "We have seen outbreaks similar to this in 201x, so it is not unprecedented."

It's very useful to be able to spot "bias", or possible bias, and read from another source or explore further.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #38 on:** March 05, 2025, 12:26:11 PM »

This has been helpful so far, so thanks for participating.

It's useful to me in that I wanted to see if other intelligent people would say things I haven't thought of, and if so, do they make sense or not?

Not too much here I haven't thought of, but like I say, that still holds value for me, AND, several of you have elaborated in helpful ways that were good to better organize my thoughts about it all.

Feel free to carry on. Soon, hopefully, I'll get around to organizing my thoughts into an outline, which so far, are just jotted down notes I've written with a few clarifications/elaborations based on something I picked up here.

Forcing myself to articulate and consider my thought process has been useful. Next step will be to develop habits, maybe an intentional process, whereby I make sure I'm adhering to my own methods. Some of this stuff happens internally and automatically as I've unconsciously developed the ideas over time. Sometimes, it does not, and I wind up thinking I know something about something when really I've just ignored my own suggestions.

I swear, the older I get, the dumber I am. When I was a teenager I knew frickin everything. It's only been downhill from there.

FearlessF · « **Reply #39 on:** March 05, 2025, 12:28:12 PM »

wait till ya git to be my age

Cincydawg · « **Reply #40 on:** March 05, 2025, 12:37:16 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on March 05, 2025, 12:26:11 PM

I swear, the older I get, the dumber I am. When I was a teenager I knew frickin everything. It's only been downhill from there.

I think for many who gain an advanced degree, an important part of the learning is "I don't know S."

You may learn a whole lot about vanishingly little.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #41 on:** March 05, 2025, 03:53:48 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on March 03, 2025, 06:11:59 PM

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I realized how much I don’t know, and how much I could learn from every customer, every associate- really everyone. My career took off like lightning from that day.

Not only that it's where the money is.

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Topic: How do you know what you think you know?

Cincydawg

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

MikeDeTiger

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

betarhoalphadelta

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

MikeDeTiger

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

FearlessF

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

utee94

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

MikeDeTiger

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

OrangeAfroMan

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

betarhoalphadelta

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

Cincydawg

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

MikeDeTiger

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

FearlessF

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

Cincydawg

Re: How do you know what you think you know?

MrNubbz

Re: How do you know what you think you know?