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Topic: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #784 on: May 07, 2020, 03:51:02 PM »
You're writing as if we are still living with the Constitution of 1787.
We're not.  There's a process for improving/editing it.  It has been applied 27 times.  Sometimes the change has been for the better, other times for the worse.  That process is still available for us to use.
Actually, two processes, one we've successfully (in terms of getting the change applied) used 27 times and the other (Article V convention of states) that has not been tried.
So, again, what particular changes would you like to see?
There's a third process... The Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution changes over time.

Mdot21

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #785 on: May 07, 2020, 03:57:57 PM »
The Department of Justice is dropping the criminal case against President Donald Trump's first national security adviser, Michael Flynn, abandoning a prosecution that became a rallying cry for Trump and his supporters in attacking the FBI's Russia investigation.
They should've dropped the case on Flynn. What they actually need to do is bring up charges on the FBI and Comey.

FearlessF

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #786 on: May 07, 2020, 04:04:10 PM »
Former CIA operative: 'People like' Comey and Brennan should get death penalty

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/former-cia-operative-people-like-comey-and-brennan-should-get-death-penalty
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FearlessF

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #787 on: May 07, 2020, 04:04:44 PM »
yup, but again

nothing will happen, just headlines and bullsh!t
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CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #788 on: May 07, 2020, 04:11:12 PM »
I recall some "not my president," one endless investigation of a political rival and another, well a campaign by a future president for an investigation. Obviously hats weren't a thing at that point. A "resist" part seems not exactly analogous to the Tea Party push, but some of the fiery sentiments echo.

To me, much of the tone was brought to light though the last campaign. We'd been brewing elements of all this for a while. Words had been heated from the left through the W era, but were mostly taken at pearl clutching and such. Through the 2008-16 run, I think a certain extra level of extreme tone was burbling, more effectively from the party not controlling the executive (we talked about a "war on Christmas" and people seemed endlessly triggered by "happy holidays"). Different sides
employed different brass knuckled approaches, with some hard-edged realpolitik to grind things to a halt and then try to slow them down.

And then in all this, you had a looming specter of a party that had held the executive for so long in seemingly better shape on that front. The other side's field was weak. There was talk of demographic changes putting the squeeze on that side. And it allowed a crack for a person with nothing to lose to harness that extreme tone. That tone had always been powerful, but had been kept as the quiet part. Suddenly it was loud. Historically, that brashness created missteps and missteps were costly. But it turned out that tone was quite powerful. It bundled with the game theory that keeps us at two parties, that at a point, people have to put something aside for something else they want. And in the dark parts of ourselves, I think there's some satisfaction in indulging in that kind of extreme tone. The right use of that tone, the right appeal in certain sectors and the natural coming home phenomenon allowed for a big swing. 

And when the electoral outcome fell, it made that tone not the impediment it once was, but made clear it's the source of strength it has slowly grown into. The left has long been more hamfisted in trying to harness such a tone. The right, more elegant and sharp, like a boxer tight in its movements. And we find ourselves in this spot, at least until someone can capture electoral wins with a different sort of rhetoric.
So, if I read you right, you're saying that "liberals" have been ham-fisted assholes while "conservatives" have been sharp, elegant assholes?
As someone who was very unhappy about the election of Barack Obama, I think I can safely say that some of the opposition to him was based on racism.  It wasn't my objection--there were several black conservatives whom I gladly would have supported, as well as others whom I have supported in the past--but it surely was the main objective of some.
That was a bad thing for many reasons, one of which is that it allowed "liberals" to delegitimize all opposition to the Obama administration as being based on nothing more than bigotry.
But there was no riot (preplanned or spontaneous) on Inauguration Day in 2009 or 2013.  Nor was there a follow-on "March" that blocked access to the monuments and museums for all the visitors and tourists.  I was there that weekend, leading a student group.  (I had agreed to do it a year earlier, before anyone knew who the nominees would be, much less the general election winner.)  It was awful.  Our trip (for which each student had paid over $1,000) was ruined.  There was nothing like that to spoil the two previous inaugurations.  (I'll add that the incoming POTUS' hugely self-referential inaugural address added to the spoilification.)
Bottom line for me: Things were bad in early 2009 in terms of the losing side refusing to graciously accept defeat and they were even worse--much worse--in early 2017.  And, the way we're headed, they might be worse still in early 2021, regardless of whose turd of a candidate wins.
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Mdot21

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #789 on: May 07, 2020, 04:18:39 PM »
yup, but again

nothing will happen, just headlines and bullsh!t
yup.

There are a different set of rules for the powerful.

Any other gov't employee would probably be in prison for having a private email server that handled Top Secret information. Hillary Clinton? Just got to run for president. No big deal. Someone not related to her named Tom Clinton that was a low-level CIA analyst who got caught doing the same thing- well that person would be in prison.

General David Patreus leaked Top Secret information- the highest classification of classified, secret government information- to his journalist girlfriend/mistress that was writing a book. What happened to him? Nothing.

Edward Snowden leaks Secret information- one rung below Top Secret on the classification scale- and the dude has to hide out in Russia to be sparred from being thrown in a jail cell for the rest of his life. Information which by the way- that 1000000% should've been revealed to the American public. The guy is a god damn hero.

Different rules for these set of folks. Having said that, Michael Flynn was entrapped by the FBI. Think that's been proven. He made a plea deal for the charge of lying to the FBI, under pressure that they would go after his son. Can't blame him for taking the deal. But it was a BS charge from the word go.

There is some speculation that Flynn might've been targeted by those in the intelligence community for payback. He was one of the loudest and few voices when he worked in the Obama administration that hey- your little plan to arm "rebels" in Syria to fight Assad is stupid because you're arming ISIS and Al-Qaeda off-shoots- not "freedom fighters". And he was very vocal about it after he'd been fired. He didn't exactly shy away from very public criticisms of the intelligence community or Obama.

CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #790 on: May 07, 2020, 04:19:25 PM »
The Department of Justice is dropping the criminal case against President Donald Trump's first national security adviser, Michael Flynn, abandoning a prosecution that became a rallying cry for Trump and his supporters in attacking the FBI's Russia investigation.

will be the same with the insider trading of the Senators

oh, this is a big deal, we are going to punish the offenders!

then nothing, it goes away after a few months of wasting time and money

the rich politicians do not punish themselves

the impeachment proceedings probably the same deal.  Much ado about nuttin
What criminal case is this?  Flynn pled guilty 2 (?) years ago and was convicted.  He has lately said that he wants to withdraw his agreement to the plea-bargain because he was misled by the FBI and poorly represented by his lawyers.  Is his conviction being overturned?
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utee94

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #791 on: May 07, 2020, 04:20:13 PM »
So, if I read you right, you're saying that "liberals" have been ham-fisted assholes while "conservatives" have been sharp, elegant assholes?
As someone who was very unhappy about the election of Barack Obama, I think I can safely say that some of the opposition to him was based on racism.  It wasn't my objection--there were several black conservatives whom I gladly would have supported, as well as others whom I have supported in the past--but it surely was the main objective of some.
That was a bad thing for many reasons, one of which is that it allowed "liberals" to delegitimize all opposition to the Obama administration as being based on nothing more than bigotry.
But there was no riot (preplanned or spontaneous) on Inauguration Day in 2009 or 2013.  Nor was there a follow-on "March" that blocked access to the monuments and museums for all the visitors and tourists.  I was there that weekend, leading a student group.  (I had agreed to do it a year earlier, before anyone knew who the nominees would be, much less the general election winner.)  It was awful.  Our trip (for which each student had paid over $1,000) was ruined.  There was nothing like that to spoil the two previous inaugurations.  (I'll add that the incoming POTUS' hugely self-referential inaugural address added to the spoilification.)
Bottom line for me: Things were bad in early 2009 in terms of the losing side refusing to graciously accept defeat and they were even worse--much worse--in early 2017.  And, the way we're headed, they might be worse still in early 2021, regardless of whose turd of a candidate wins.

Completely agree.  Unless Biden ends up winning and is considered just so milquetoast that he doesn't generate the same kind of scorn that, say, Hillary would have.

Mdot21

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #792 on: May 07, 2020, 04:21:52 PM »
As someone who was very unhappy about the election of Barack Obama, I think I can safely say that some of the opposition to him was based on racism.  It wasn't my objection--there were several black conservatives whom I gladly would have supported, as well as others whom I have supported in the past--but it surely was the main objective of some.
can I ask why you were so unhappy? Was it the hope and change rhetoric? Did you think he was actually a progressive or liberal?

Because if you loved W., you had to have liked Obama. He was almost the same guy in terms of policy, just came in very different packaging.

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #793 on: May 07, 2020, 04:23:32 PM »
I'm reading a biography of John Marshall right now, it's a tome, and it puts me to sleep at times despite being fascinating.  He apparently despised Jefferson, a lot.  He got along OK with Madison.  He seemed to get along with nearly everyone around really.  His son supported an emancipation movement in Virginia in 1833 but dies shortly after (it was rumored he had dirt on Hillary).

The animosity back then was of a "duel" nature, not just in the press, which was wild and crazy, but with firearms.  The election of 1800 was epic.  The country has almost always been half crazy, and the other half lunatics.

I think we even fought a war with each other when we couldn't find some foreign country to bomb.

The wife and I stumbled across a GA historical marker yesterday we had missed just up the road about the movement of Hardee's corps along Clear Creek.

The Cyclorama here is interesting, it has been restored and the real story is now being told, at least it sounds like the real story ...

Mdot21

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #794 on: May 07, 2020, 04:24:28 PM »
Completely agree.  Unless Biden ends up winning and is considered just so milquetoast that he doesn't generate the same kind of scorn that, say, Hillary would have.
If Biden wins, which I highly doubt- he will be out of the white house and in a nursing home by the time his 4 years are up. He is seriously losing it. It's hard to watch. It wouldn't be so funny if the entire system wasn't so corrupt.

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #795 on: May 07, 2020, 04:25:14 PM »
Because if you loved W., you had to have liked Obama. He was almost the same guy in terms of policy, just came in very different packaging.
I tend to think the only reliable reason to vote for a President is court appointments.  A President really has limited powers otherwise.  I also like Presidents who don't get us into conflicts, which was my one hope with Trump, maybe.

CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #796 on: May 07, 2020, 04:27:49 PM »
There's a third process... The Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution changes over time.
Yeah, but that one is not available to "We the People."
It's the one I like the least, too.
It makes every SCOTUS nomination now a fight to the death, because we've nationalized every issue and because one side can say that the other side will appoint justices and judges who will strip away our rights.  As one particularly corrupt and disgusting pol said in the 2012 campaign, the other side wanted to "put y'all back in chains."
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CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #797 on: May 07, 2020, 04:31:20 PM »
They should've dropped the case on Flynn. What they actually need to do is bring up charges on the FBI and Comey.
Flynn violated the law.
If you think that Hillary should have been prosecuted, as I do, then you have to accept that the prosecution of Flynn was justified.
I just wish everybody had to play by the same set of rules.
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