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Topic: Establishing an OOC Rivalry

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bayareabadger

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #252 on: July 06, 2020, 06:05:58 PM »

IMHO, this would help to keep the games meaningful even after a team had "clinched".  Example, last year's B1GCG as it was:
  • Wisconsin was 10-2 and playing only for pride.  As a practical matter they had no chance at the CFP even with a win so they were going to the Rose Bowl either way it was just a question of whether they were going as B1G Champs or not. 
  • Ohio State was 12-0 and, as it turned out, playing for basically nothing.  As it turned out, had the Buckeyes lost they'd still have played Clemson in the Fiesta Bowl the only difference would have been that Clemson would have been wearing home jerseys.  


I find the thought of this interesting. 

Winning anything is only worth the weight you put on it. If you care about winning the Outback Bowl, it matters. If you don't, it doesn't. 

Perhaps we can argue that winning the conference is an illusory sort of pride, and perhaps down the road, the idea of that dissipates. But I'd assume that measure of pride carries more weight than the particular bowl teams end up in. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #253 on: July 07, 2020, 11:43:51 AM »
I find the thought of this interesting.

Winning anything is only worth the weight you put on it. If you care about winning the Outback Bowl, it matters. If you don't, it doesn't.

Perhaps we can argue that winning the conference is an illusory sort of pride, and perhaps down the road, the idea of that dissipates. But I'd assume that measure of pride carries more weight than the particular bowl teams end up in.
I just think that Wisconsin was in a particularly odd position last year.  Heading into the B1GCG:
  • 12-0 Ohio State was ranked #1CFP, #2AP
  • 10-2 Wisconsin was ranked #10CFP, #8AP
  • 10-2 Penn State was ranked #12CFP, #10AP
  • 9-3 Michigan was ranked #17CFP, #14AP

If Wisconsin had been 9-3 or 8-4 then a B1GCG loss would have knocked them out of the RoseBowl (in favor of Penn State) so they'd have had the RoseBowl to play for.  

If they had been 11-1 or 12-0 then a B1GCG win would have gotten them into the CFP so they'd have had a CFP spot to play for.  

At 10-2 they couldn't possibly either make the CFP or miss the RoseBowl so they had about as little as possible for a CCG team to play for.  They were playing for the B1G Championship and that is important to us but they were playing for that and that ONLY.  Usually the CCG also has at least a potential bearing on the team's bowl destination but I think everybody knew long before kickoff in Indy that for Wisconsin, it didn't.  


bayareabadger

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #254 on: July 07, 2020, 07:39:39 PM »
I just think that Wisconsin was in a particularly odd position last year.  Heading into the B1GCG:
  • 12-0 Ohio State was ranked #1CFP, #2AP
  • 10-2 Wisconsin was ranked #10CFP, #8AP
  • 10-2 Penn State was ranked #12CFP, #10AP
  • 9-3 Michigan was ranked #17CFP, #14AP

If Wisconsin had been 9-3 or 8-4 then a B1GCG loss would have knocked them out of the RoseBowl (in favor of Penn State) so they'd have had the RoseBowl to play for. 

If they had been 11-1 or 12-0 then a B1GCG win would have gotten them into the CFP so they'd have had a CFP spot to play for. 

At 10-2 they couldn't possibly either make the CFP or miss the RoseBowl so they had about as little as possible for a CCG team to play for.  They were playing for the B1G Championship and that is important to us but they were playing for that and that ONLY.  Usually the CCG also has at least a potential bearing on the team's bowl destination but I think everybody knew long before kickoff in Indy that for Wisconsin, it didn't. 


I don't totally think that was the case. 

If I recall correctly, there was a vague sense if UW just got molliwopped, that PSU or maybe even (shudder) Minnesota, might get the nod, owing to either having the same number of wins and one extra loss. I mean like if UW just got smothered. But then the Badgers led by 14 at halftime and everyone knew OSU was probably gonna win and UW was assuredly Ca-bound.

There's some fun not totally analogous UW history in terms of different outcome, same result. In 2005-06 and 2008-09, UW went to the same bowls back to back and did so despite two-win improvements across each pair of years. 

The 2005 Badgers were 9-3 with a nice offense and bad defense, but only two teams were better and the rest of the league was 7-4 or worse, so they were off to the Capital One Bowl. The next year, they go 11-1, but lost to Michigan and didn't play OSU, so with the two-teams per conference rule, it was back to Orlando. 

Then in 2008, UW limped to 7-5 and found itself in the Champ Sports Bowl, just barely squeaking out avoiding a crappy (better) trip to the Insight Bowl. UW went 9-3 the next year, saved its coaches job, went from 3-5 to 5-3 in conference. BUT they only finished one spot better when factoring tie-breaker, and some blend of that tie-breaker/NW being interesting jumped 8-4 NW over 9-3 UW for the Outback, sending UW to the Champ Sports. 

In the moment, it was annoying, but most of the things worked out alright.

SFBadger96

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #255 on: July 07, 2020, 07:52:19 PM »
I skipped 18 of the pages in this, but for Wisconsin I agree with:
1) Georgia or Auburn
2) Washington
3) The Badgers are probably not a big enough ticket, but Texas would be a great one.
4) I wish UCLA still cared about football or Cal could get good at it because either could be a great series. UCLA certainly has the better history, but the parallels between Madison and Berkeley are hard to ignore. Along those same lines, UNC would also be great.

Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #256 on: July 08, 2020, 07:16:22 AM »
UGA's "big" OOC rivalry is with Clemson.  This presumes you ignore Tech of course.  Clemson was almost always on the slate way back, but has been more sporadically of late.  They are proximate, compete against each other for recruits often, and both are having a good run right now.

FSU would be possible but they of course are paired with Florida.  Nobody else OOC is close until you get to NC, which is fairly close.  Is proximity a need?  Not always, ND-USC.  Tradition > proximity.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #257 on: July 08, 2020, 09:51:33 AM »
UGA's "big" OOC rivalry is with Clemson.  This presumes you ignore Tech of course.  Clemson was almost always on the slate way back, but has been more sporadically of late.  They are proximate, compete against each other for recruits often, and both are having a good run right now.

FSU would be possible but they of course are paired with Florida.  Nobody else OOC is close until you get to NC, which is fairly close.  Is proximity a need?  Not always, ND-USC.  Tradition > proximity.
Per Stassen, Georgia's most frequent opponents not currently in the SEC and UGA's record against them:
  • GaTech, 109 games, 64-40-5
  • Clemson, 59 games, 39-16-4
  • Tulane, 25 games, 14-10-1 (NOTE, last game was in 1985)
  • UNC, 24 games, 16-6-2
  • Furman, 22 games, 20-2 (NOTE, last game was in 1950)
  • Mercer, 21 games, 21-0 (NOTE, last game was in 1941)
  • Virginia, 18 games, 9-6-3
  • Miami, FL, 12 games, 7-4-1
  • Yale, 11 games, 6-5 (NOTE, last game was in 1934
  • Florida State, 11 games, 6-4-1

From my perspective, the GaTech rivalry is a good series.  It is in-state so has proximity going for it.  Also, I'm sure that a LOT of UGA grads live and work in the ATL metro area so this is an easy "away" game for them to get to, easier even than going to a home game in Athens.  

Clemson would be a good one to get going again.  It is just over an hour by car so an easy gameday drive (I drive more than that to get to tOSU home games).  

Tulane, Furman, Mercer, and Yale are obviously relics of the distant past.  


UNC would make some sense.  It is five hours by car so not a terribly long trip and might help UGA to lure more NC recruits.  

Virginia, Miami, and Florida State are farther away but would be good for occasional games.  

The problem, I think, is that most P5 teams are pretty set on playing one somewhat equal OOC opponent per year and filling the rest of their OOC slots with creampuffs.  GaTech isn't really a modern* "equal" for UGA, but that series does rotate H&H like an "equal" series.  

UGA and GaTech as "equals"?  Overall UGA leads the series 64-40-5.  That is pretty equal.  If you think about it, it means that in an average decade UGA has roughly won six and lost four.  However, that isn't how it happened.  Tech dominated the series early (5-1-1 in the first seven meetings) and went 7-5-2 before they became conference mates and 10-6-2 through 1928.  Since then (1929-2019) Georgia is 58-30-3 in 91 meetings and it has been trending more lopsided recently with UGA leading 16-3 since 2001.  

My personal theory is that even the high-end P5 teams are going to trend toward tougher schedules as it becomes increasingly difficult to sell tickets.  It was already becoming more difficult for these teams to sell out their creampuff home games before COVID and my supposition is that the COVID interruption will only make that worse because some former ticket-buyers will not come back once they get used to not attending in person.  

From your past posts, I gather that you would like to see UGA drop or reduce the games against Tech and replace them with what you consider to be better OOC games.  I think instead that the increasing difficulty of selling tickets will cause UGA, in the long run, to keep Tech (because I assume that selling tickets to that game is considerably easier than a creampuff) AND add more high-end OOC games in addition to that.  

Final thought:
I think that Miami might present a unique opportunity for UGA or another P5 school.  Miami can't sell tickets at all because they have about four fans so it might make sense from the perspective of the Miami AD to be willing to agree to a 2:1 or 3:2 type A:H ratio.  This could be a great deal for both teams.  Georgia (or Ohio State or Notre Dame or any other large-fanbase school) would fill up the stadium for the Miami home games while Miami is a marquee opponent that would help the other school sell tickets to their home games.  It would be a good deal for Miami because they would get a full stadium and it would be a great deal for UGA/tOSU/ND because they would get more home than away games and a marquee opponent to help sell home game tickets.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #258 on: July 08, 2020, 09:57:54 AM »
Tech was in the SEC for many of those games, and Tech was a true national power in the 1950s and 1960s.

UGA has another series scheduled with Clemson, and toward the end of this decade they have scheduled three OOC opponents who are P5s each year.

They play Clemson in NS games in 2021 and 2024, and then have a series in 2029 (when they also play Texas) and 2030 (when they also play Ohio State).

Plus Tech.  So, it's a pretty traditional and continuing OOC rivalry.

I see another series 2032-2033 with Clemson on the books.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 10:20:26 AM by Cincydawg »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #259 on: July 08, 2020, 10:04:47 AM »
The same analysis for Ohio State:

  • Pittsburgh, 25 games, 19-5-1 (NOTE, last game was in 1996 and Pitt's last win was in 1952)
  • USC, 24 games, 10-13-1 (NOTE, eight of the 24 meetings were Bowl games, seven Rose Bowls 55, 69, 73, 74, 75, 80, 85 and the recent Cotton Bowl)  Another note, the Buckeyes were 8-5-1 in the first 14 meetings (through the 1969 #1 v #2 RoseBowl) then lost eight of nine including seven in a row before the recent Cotton Bowl win.  
  • Ohio Wesleyan, 15 games, 15-0 (NOTE, last game was in 1932)
  • Chicago, 14 games, 10-2-2 (NOTE, former conference member, last game was in 1939 when they were still in the league)
  • Mizzou, 12 games, 10-1-1
  • Washington, 12 games, 9-3
  • Oregon, 9 games, 9-0
  • SMU, 9 games, 7-1-1 (NOTE, last game was in 1978)
  • UCLA, 9 games, 4-4-1
  • tie (WSU, Oberlin, Cal, Cincy, 8 games each, 8-0 against WSU and Cincy, 7-1 against Cal, 5-2-1 against Oberlin last in 1922

Pitt isn't an equal.  

USC, Washington, Oregon, UCLA, WSU, and Cal are distant PAC teams where playing occasionally makes sense but not more than that.  

Ohio Wesleyan, Chicago, SMU, and Oberlin are relics.  

Mizzou isn't an equal and while it might make sense to play them occasionally anything more than that would not be beneficial to Ohio State.  


Cincy isn't an equal and playing them frequently would not benefit Ohio State.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #260 on: July 08, 2020, 10:07:16 AM »
Pitt is at least a P5 program.  Cincy might be played 2 and 1 with 1 being in PB stadium.  But I agree neither would be real rivals.


847badgerfan

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #261 on: July 08, 2020, 10:15:38 AM »
WVU might be good for OSU.

Who is an equal to OSU? Bama, Clemson and OU?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Kris60

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #262 on: July 08, 2020, 10:23:24 AM »
If you are looking for OOC equals for Ohio St that is a pretty short list. They played one a few years ago in Oklahoma and they have Bama coming up.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #263 on: July 08, 2020, 10:39:03 AM »
Pitt is at least a P5 program.  Cincy might be played 2 and 1 with 1 being in PB stadium.  But I agree neither would be real rivals.
If I were the AD at Ohio State I would be willing to schedule a 2:1 with Cincy roughly every decade or maybe slightly more often with the proviso that, as you stated, their game is in Paul Brown Stadium and Ohio State gets LOTS of tickets to sell.  I might do something similar with Pitt and/or WVU.  
If you are looking for OOC equals for Ohio St that is a pretty short list. They played one a few years ago in Oklahoma and they have Bama coming up. 
Who is an equal to OSU? Bama, Clemson and OU?
When I used the term "equal" I meant something more than just "P5" but I didn't mean "Bama, Clemson, or OU only".  I think I meant something more like "helmet" or at least "near-helmet".  Basically Stewart Mandel's Kings and Barons
Stewart Mandel's Kings and Barons (not including B1G teams because they aren't OOC):
  • Bama
  • Clemson
  • Florida
  • FSU
  • LSU
  • Miami, FL
  • Notre Dame
  • Oklahoma
  • Texas
  • USC
  • Auburn
  • Georgia
  • Oregon
  • Stanford
  • Tennessee
  • aTm
  • UCLA
  • VaTech


847badgerfan

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #264 on: July 08, 2020, 10:56:10 AM »
Miami and UCLA? Yuck.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #265 on: July 08, 2020, 11:07:44 AM »
Miami and UCLA? Yuck.
They are big enough names to draw in fans and that is the concern for the AD.  

 

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