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Topic: Establishing an OOC Rivalry

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Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #196 on: June 29, 2020, 10:48:49 AM »
I'd guess not.  Fulton county where I live and where most of the subway exists has a lower rate of infection than Gwinnett and several rural counties here.

I didn't think Houston had much of a subway system.

bayareabadger

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #197 on: June 29, 2020, 11:02:38 AM »
As a Florida fan, the 10-3 Peach Bowl-winning season followed by the 11-2 Orange Bowl-winning 2019 season has been good......but I think as a group, our thought is, "okay, good start, Mullen, now let's get there." 

We expect to get to the next level.  Not hope, expect.  If we don't, then we'll go HC shopping again in 5-6 years. 

11-2, Orange Bowl win = a good start

Yeah, kind of crazy, but it's the reality.
There is winning the East some, and very occasionally going to the playoff?

(This gets me to my expectations are like goldfish theory, but that’s for later on)

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2020, 03:14:03 PM »
Yeah, probably, but we tend to forget that upsets happen, and more often when you have a top ten pairing.  That 8th place team even if correctly seeded is still a very good team in most cases, probably the 3rd best opponent the 1st place team has faced.
I think this is doubtful because I think that when we go to an 8-team playoff the highest ranked G5 Champion is almost guaranteed to get a slot.  Additionally, all P5 Champions will probably get slots as well.  Thus, the #1 seed vs #8 seed CFP game is NOT going to be #1 vs #8.  

Since the CFP started in 2014 this is the lowest ranked (CFP) team that would have been included in an 8-team playoff with auto-bids for the P5 Champions and the highest ranked G5 Champion:
  • 2014:  #20 Boise St would have played at #1 Bama
  • 2015:  #18 Houston would have played at #1 Clemson
  • 2016:  #15 WMU would have played at #1 Bama
  • 2017:  #12 UCF would have played at #1 Clemson
  • 2018:  #8 UCF would have played at #1 Bama
  • 2019:  #17 Memphis would have played at #1 LSU

So with those assumptions the #8 seed would have been top-10 only once (UCF in 2018).  

FWIW, the seeds for 2014-2019 would have been (I'm assuming because I prefer it that the top-4 have to be league Champions):
2014:
  • 12-1 #1 Bama (SEC Champ)
  • 12-1 #2 Oregon (PAC Champ)
  • 13-0 #3 FSU (ACC Champ)
  • 12-1 #4 tOSU (B1G Champ)
  • 11-1 #5 Baylor (B12 Champ)
  • 11-1 #6 TCU
  • 10-2 #7 MissSt
  • 11-2 #20 Boise St (MWC Champion)

2015:
  • 13-0 #1 Clemson (ACC Champ)
  • 12-1 #2 Bama (SEC Champ)
  • 12-1 #3 MSU (B1G Champ)
  • 11-1 #4 Oklahoma (B12 Champ)
  • 12-1 #5 Iowa
  • 11-2 #6 Stanford (PAC Champ)
  • 11-1 #7 tOSU
  • 12-1 #18 Houston (AAC Champ)


2016:
  • 13-0 #1 Bama (SEC Champ)
  • 12-1 #2 Clemson (ACC Champ)
  • 12-1 #4 Washington (PAC Champ)
  • 11-2 #5 PSU (B1G Champ)
  • 11-1 #3 tOSU
  • 10-2 #6 Michigan
  • 10-2 #7 Oklahoma (B12 Champ)
  • 13-0 #15 Western Michigan (MAC Champ)

2017:
  • 12-1 #1 Clemson (ACC Champ)
  • 12-1 #2 Oklahoma (B12 Champ)
  • 12-1 #3 UGA (SEC Champ)
  • 11-2 #5 tOSU (B1G Champ)
  • 11-1 #4 Bama
  • 12-1 #6 Wisconsin
  • 11-2 #8 USC (Pac Champ)
  • 12-0 #12 UCF (AAC Champ)


2018:
  • 13-0 #1 Bama (SEC Champ)
  • 13-0 #2 Clemson (ACC Champ)
  • 12-1 #4 Oklahoma (B12 Champ)
  • 12-1 #6 tOSU (B1G Champ)
  • 12-0 #3 Notre Dame
  • 11-2 #5 UGA
  • 10-3 #9 Washington
  • 12-0 #8 UCF (AAC Champ)

2019:
  • 13-0 #1 LSU (SEC Champ)
  • 13-0 #2 tOSU (B1G Champ)
  • 13-0 #3 Clemson (ACC Champ)
  • 12-1 #4 Oklahoma (B12 Champ)
  • 11-2 #5 UGA
  • 11-2 #6 Oregon (PAC Champ)
  • 11-2 #7 Baylor
  • 12-1 #17 Memphis (AAC Champ)


Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2020, 03:17:13 PM »
Good point, but upsets would happen, just more rarely than I thought.

FearlessF

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #200 on: June 29, 2020, 03:19:28 PM »
I would guess upsets happen more often on the underdog's home field
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Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #201 on: June 29, 2020, 03:21:16 PM »
I would guess upsets happen more often on the underdog's home field
I would guess that, but it depends on how you define an upset.  I don't  tend to think a 3 point dog winning a game is an upset, and that 3 points would be shaded for HFA.  It would be interesting to see the home-vs-away pedigree for 10+ point upsets.

@ftbobs

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #202 on: June 29, 2020, 03:23:34 PM »
We could start by agreeing on the home field advantage, the true one, when competitive teams play a game.  Let's say 6 points?
The wiseguys usually say 3-4 but remember that means a 6-8 point swing. 

Ie, assuming that my Buckeyes and your Bulldogs are exactly equal then theoretically UGA would win by 3-4 points in Athens while tOSU would win by 3-4 points in Columbus.  

Example:
  • UGA wins 17-14 in Athens
  • tOSU wins 14-10 in Columbus
(or vice-versa).  


Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #203 on: June 29, 2020, 03:25:55 PM »
Yeah, 3-4 points is probably about right, and most of that is crowd noise in key situations, right?

Some can be due to time zone changes and travel and unfamiliar surroundings.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #204 on: June 29, 2020, 03:31:22 PM »
alabama's bowl record is quite good, but it should be considering their overall record.
I do not think that this is necessarily correct because bowl opponents vary based on record. 

Ie, in years when Bama barely squeaks into a bowl at 6-6 they usually face a comparable team that also barely squeaked into that bowl at 6-6 or maybe 7-5.  Conversely, when Bama is 13-0 and #1 they typically face a comparable team that is 12-1 or so.  

I remember, years ago, having this discussion with a USC fan.  USC is 25-9 in Rose Bowls and 9-11 in other bowls.  The USC fan made the statement that "of course USC didn't do as well when they weren't in the RoseBowl because those USC teams weren't very good.  I pointed out that of course they weren't, but their opponents weren't very good either.  

USC has 55 Bowl appearances with:
  • 34 wins
  • 20 losses
  • 1 win that got vacated (2005 Orange Bowl win over Oklahoma)


Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #205 on: June 29, 2020, 03:50:30 PM »
Back in the day, UGA would get into lesser bowls because of the fan base.  I'm sure this was common, especially when B1G teams could not be in the mix.  So, they could end up playing a better team in a given bowl game.  They are 31-21-3 in bowls, I don't think that means anything other than they went to a lot of bowl games, many of course "minor".

If the played say Ohio State in Orlando, how much HFA do they have?  From what I have seen, the crowd noise there is rather sparse.  A dome would change that calculus, especially considering domes are usually major bowl games today.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #206 on: June 29, 2020, 04:59:07 PM »
There is winning the East some, and very occasionally going to the playoff?

(This gets me to my expectations are like goldfish theory, but that’s for later on)
Yeah, we need some playoff appearances. 
Winning the East isn't enough.  That should be the default.  We won the East twice under McElwain, but it didn't matter, because it was just an invitation to get beat up by Bama. 
Florida should win the East more than half the time and should win in Atlanta more than half the time we get there.

That's how you keep your job in Gainesville.  If both of those happen, we'll be in the playoff plenty.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #207 on: June 29, 2020, 05:04:11 PM »
The wiseguys usually say 3-4 but remember that means a 6-8 point swing. 

This part bothered me and didn't seem right, but I couldn't put my finger on it.  But then I figured why:

what you're saying here isn't wrong, but here's why it feels odd - even when teams play twice in a season, they very nearly almost NEVER play at each other's home fields.  They play at one team's home field and then at a neutral site:  CCG or bowl game.

So within a season, at least, there isn't a 6-8 point swing.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #208 on: June 29, 2020, 05:26:09 PM »
This part bothered me and didn't seem right, but I couldn't put my finger on it.  But then I figured why:

what you're saying here isn't wrong, but here's why it feels odd - even when teams play twice in a season, they very nearly almost NEVER play at each other's home fields.  They play at one team's home field and then at a neutral site:  CCG or bowl game.

So within a season, at least, there isn't a 6-8 point swing. 
I meant in terms of the difference between my place and your place.  Ie, if my Buckeyes and your Gators are considered "exactly equal" then, in theory, UF would be favored by about 3-4 points in the Swamp while tOSU would be favored by about 3-4 points in the Shoe.  Thus, the 6-8 point swing.  

But you are right, in almost all cases when teams play twice in a season the second game is at a neutral site so it is only a 3-4 point swing.  However, if we get home field for the first round of the expanded 8-team playoff then I think we'll see some two game sets at each other's fields and/or at the same team's field twice.  

Using the examples I posted above for 8-team CFP fields:
2014:  No rematches in the first round.  There are two potential rematches.  #1 seed Bama beat #7 seed MissSt in Tuscaloosa and could meet them again if both made the CG.  #5 seed Baylor beat #6 seed TCU in Baylor and could meet them again if both made the CG.  

2015:  #3 seed MSU played both #5 seed Iowa (B1GCG) and #7 seed tOSU (in Columbus) and could meet tOSU in the second round and/or Iowa in the CG.  

2016:  #4 seed PSU beat #5 seed tOSU in Happy Valley and the rematch would be in Happy Valley in the first round of the playoffs.  Both of them already played #6 seed Michigan so the winner could also have a rematch in the CG.  

2017:  #4 seed tOSU and #6 seed UW played in the B1GCG and would rematch if both made the CG.  

2018:  No potential rematches.  

2019:  #1 seed LSU and #5 seed UGA played in the SECCG and could rematch in the second round.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Establishing an OOC Rivalry
« Reply #209 on: June 29, 2020, 05:27:25 PM »
Had UGA played LSU a second time, well, it would not have been pretty.


 

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