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Topic: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?

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Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2023, 10:25:13 AM »
I can see that, good point, though in many cases I've seen vertically integrated operations start to farm out their supply operations.  P&G used to have it's own tree farms, quite a bit, for example, and sold them off.  They contracted out a lot of their formerly integrated operations.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2023, 10:26:15 AM »
Would Uber buy Lyft and become one?  We still have taxis here and they are cheaper than Uber from the airport.

Again I think this is a case of so narrowly defining an industry such that you can talk about a monopoly that has zero power to exploit their monopoly, much as when Sirius and XMRadio merged. Except even less so, because an Uber/Lyft merger wouldn't have the same barriers to entry as two entities that had to launch satellites into space. All it would take is another app popping up. 

I.e. what will happen if Airbnb and Vrbo merge? Where will I advertise my short-term rental? 

What if Tinder buys EHarmony and Bumble? Where will anyone find a hookup? A **BAR** where they have to actually talk to someone face to face, like a neanderthal?!?! 

I do share your fear of monopolies, especially if a monopoly was to form in a critical sector that we all have very little alternative to participate in (we'll use gasoline as an example). If someone cornered the world market on gasoline forming a monopoly, there's not much we could do to avoid paying whatever they asked. 

But if you're worried about Uber/Lyft merging, I think you're reaching...

Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2023, 10:39:06 AM »
I've never really thought about this topic before.  It's pretty common for folks to think we need the FTC and that unrestrained capitalism tends to monopolization, but thsi discussion suggests that is far from being obvious and could simply be wrong.

Riffraft

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2023, 10:49:54 AM »
I've never really thought about this topic before.  It's pretty common for folks to think we need the FTC and that unrestrained capitalism tends to monopolization, but thsi discussion suggests that is far from being obvious and could simply be wrong.
While it has been 40 years since I wrote it, my senior paper in college was on Why the idea of natural monopolies that need to be regulated was wrong.  I argued that "natural" barriers to entries in the market could and have been overcome.  That when profits are seen outside people and company's innovate and find the means to entry into the market against these "monopolies".  At the time I use some real world examples (can't remember them off my head).  Haven't stayed in the economic field, but my business economic degree tells me that Captalism tends towards monopoly when there are barrier to entry, economics of scale and so forth, but then other realized that profits to be made and find ways to break in via innovation, changing the market, natural changes in demand, etc.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #102 on: May 23, 2023, 10:52:51 AM »
I've never really thought about this topic before.  It's pretty common for folks to think we need the FTC and that unrestrained capitalism tends to monopolization, but thsi discussion suggests that is far from being obvious and could simply be wrong.
Well, as @betarhoalphadelta suggested, it varies by industry mostly based on alternatives and barriers to entry. 

If you cornered the ATL taxi market and charged exorbitant rates I could buy a minivan and start Ubering people around ATL and people would do that and your monopoly would fail.

It would be different if you cornered the world Oil 🛢 market. Buying oil fields and/or drilling rights, installing oil wells, building pipelines and/or buying tankers, building refineries, and building a distribution network for finished petroleum products would cost billions and take years. You'd have no competition from anything like an equivalent to random guys driving minivans. Even an entity that had the financial resources to build a network to compete with you couldn't do it quickly and you could build up cash before they got up and running then cut prices to bankrupt them when they finally did get going.

Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2023, 10:59:06 AM »
Yeah, it would probably need to be a capital intensive business so barriers to entry were high.  By the time I corner the OJ, I mean oil, market, folks would be driving EVs...

Cincydawg

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Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2023, 11:23:21 AM »
One monopoly the government grants is from patents.  A patent lasts 20 years from  date of filing, and grants you a monopoly (you have to enforce that in court).  In return, you explain how your invention works in its best mode.  This was viewed sufficiently important as to be in the Constitution.


Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2023, 12:03:24 PM »
He compares the lists of Fortune 500 firms in 1955 with those six decades later in 2017.

Only 59 enterprises were on the list in both these years, or less than 15 percent. Many of the companies on the 1955 Fortune 500 list were not only not on the 2017 list, but they no longer existed. Many of the companies on the list both of those years held different relative positions, with some higher and others lower in 2017 than in 1955. And a good number of companies on the 2017 list had not even existed sixty years earlier and therefore could not be on the 1955 list.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2023, 12:32:19 PM »
If you cornered the ATL taxi market and charged exorbitant rates I could buy a minivan and start Ubering people around ATL and people would do that and your monopoly would fail.
I would argue in many places, this is exactly what happened. The taxi market in some places is SEVERELY restricted, such as NYC where taxi medallions are limited in number presumably to reduce supply (and increase rates). In other places the taxi market was merely complacent because they had no real competition. In both cases the outcome was simple; higher prices and worse service. 

In most cases, taxis, by being regulated industries, had naturally higher costs and compliance burdens, which further limited supply even in places where they didn't have hard numerical limits like NYC. 

So in a lot of ways, taxes were effectively a regulated monopoly in many places, not unlike an electric or gas company. 

Uber and Lyft sidestepped that by offering taxi-like services without going through the regulatory burden that taxis were subjected to. Essentially they did an end-run around all regulations, and then by the time gov'ts started trying to regulate them, they were too big (and too popular) to simply ban them. 

bayareabadger

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2023, 12:39:32 PM »
Again I think this is a case of so narrowly defining an industry such that you can talk about a monopoly that has zero power to exploit their monopoly, much as when Sirius and XMRadio merged. Except even less so, because an Uber/Lyft merger wouldn't have the same barriers to entry as two entities that had to launch satellites into space. All it would take is another app popping up.

I.e. what will happen if Airbnb and Vrbo merge? Where will I advertise my short-term rental?

What if Tinder buys EHarmony and Bumble? Where will anyone find a hookup? A **BAR** where they have to actually talk to someone face to face, like a neanderthal?!?!

I do share your fear of monopolies, especially if a monopoly was to form in a critical sector that we all have very little alternative to participate in (we'll use gasoline as an example). If someone cornered the world market on gasoline forming a monopoly, there's not much we could do to avoid paying whatever they asked.

But if you're worried about Uber/Lyft merging, I think you're reaching...
Cable sort of had one, but streaming is taking a bite out of that. (Though the bundle/unbundle psychology is fascinating)

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2023, 12:39:55 PM »
Yeah, it would probably need to be a capital intensive business so barriers to entry were high.  By the time I corner the OJ, I mean oil, market, folks would be driving EVs...
Yes, and as mentioned before, my company is involved in two main businesses. One, there are only 3 companies in the world that produce what we make. The other, there are effectively 4 companies in the world doing it today, although a Chinese firm [likely with a fair bit of state support] is trying to catch up and become competitive to make it 5. 

The reason for this in both businesses is absolutely capital intensiveness and significant technological barriers to entry. 

But in some ways there are similarities to the Boeing/Airbus example here. The biggest customers regulate competition themselves via buying patterns, not allowing one producer to become too dominant and threaten the survival of the other(s). Because they refuse to allow them to become beholden to only one supplier. 

Capitalism and Monopolies: Is Regulation the Answer? – Solidarity (solidarity-us.org)

Capitalism and the Misunderstanding of Monopoly | Mises Wire

Although I'm not one to throw out a source because of who they are, I'd point out that you have two very ideologically-motivated sources here. Obviously one of them (Mises Institute) is on my end of the spectrum, but it's clear that they're arguing the theoretical/doctrinaire case against monopolization, but it's not exactly empirical. 

bayareabadger

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2023, 12:44:02 PM »
I would argue in many places, this is exactly what happened. The taxi market in some places is SEVERELY restricted, such as NYC where taxi medallions are limited in number presumably to reduce supply (and increase rates). In other places the taxi market was merely complacent because they had no real competition. In both cases the outcome was simple; higher prices and worse service.

In most cases, taxis, by being regulated industries, had naturally higher costs and compliance burdens, which further limited supply even in places where they didn't have hard numerical limits like NYC.

So in a lot of ways, taxes were effectively a regulated monopoly in many places, not unlike an electric or gas company.

Uber and Lyft sidestepped that by offering taxi-like services without going through the regulatory burden that taxis were subjected to. Essentially they did an end-run around all regulations, and then by the time gov'ts started trying to regulate them, they were too big (and too popular) to simply ban them.

The taxi one is interesting because they combined improved UX with dodging regulations.

Taxis might’ve been able to hold on longer with appropriate foresight and innovation, but they didn’t see what was coming. (And that allowed us to be socialized to have randos drive us places)

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2023, 12:47:44 PM »
Cable sort of had one, but streaming is taking a bite out of that. (Though the bundle/unbundle psychology is fascinating)
Yes, it is absolutely fascinating. It has really IMHO moved market power from those who own the pipes to those who supply (and who own) the content. 

It's changed the game from "how much am I willing to spend for X channels delivered to my house on the chance that they'll be showing something I want to see?" to "what programming do I want to watch and how much am I willing to spend for it individually?"

 

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