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Topic: Changing times, offense vs defense

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medinabuckeye1

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Changing times, offense vs defense
« on: September 29, 2022, 05:01:37 PM »
Last fall @Mdot21 started pushing his theory that you simply couldn't win big in CFB anymore by relying on a stout D. In today's game, he argued, you need a powerful offense. 

I've come around to agreeing but I'm a data guy so I wanted some numbers to back it up. 

I was thinking about it in relation to The Game and last year the Buckeyes scored 27 points in a two-score (barely) loss. I think that Michigan's defense was really good last year and I think that 20+ years ago a team with a D like that probably wins The Game something like 14-9 (tOSU in 2002) or 20-14 (M in 1997).

Not anymore:  Ohio State gained 450+ yards and put up 27 points against that defense. 

The thing is, the loser scoring 27+ isn't even unusual anymore. The last three losers of The Game scored at least 27 and in fact seven of the last 10 losers scored at least 27 points:

  • 41 by M in a 1 point loss in 2013
  • 39 by M in a 23 point loss in 2018
  • 34 by tOSU in a 6 point loss in 2011
  • 28 by M in a 14 point loss in 2014
  • 27 by M in a 3 point loss in 2016
  • 27 by tOSU in a 15 point loss in 2021
  • 27 by M in a 29 point loss in 2019


Allow me to provide some perspective: In the 19 years that Bo Schembechler coached against Woody Hayes and Earle Bruce (1969-1987) the WINNING team never scored more than 27 points. 

In other words, an amount of points (27) that was enough to pretty much guarantee a win back then is a typical losing score today.

Another perspective: In 1996 the Wolverines won 13-9 (I remember it well, I was in the tOSU student section). In the 25 years leading up to that (1972-1996) the scores were:
Winner:
  • 20 points average 
  • 34 points most
  • 9 points least
Loser:
  • 12 points average
  • 31 points most
  • 0 points least
In the 25 years since (1997-2021):
Winner:
  • 34 points average 
  • 62 points most
  • 14 points least
Loser:
  • 22 points average 
  • 41 points most
  • 3 points least

So, in the last 25 years the loser of The Game has averaged more points than the winner averaged in the preceeding 25 years.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2022, 05:09:36 PM »
The networks Have shown a lot of data over the last couple seasons which support this theory, for college football in general. Now more than ever the rules favor the offense. The data clearly support that.  

In coach speak they call it “complementary football“. 

You can no longer expect to be a champion if you have a fantastic offense  but a horrible defense, or, a fantastic defense but a horrible offense.  As some teams have shown, if you are really good on one side of the ball you need to at least be decent on the other.   
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

Mdot21

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2022, 06:33:15 PM »
great post.

the GOAT college football coach- Nick Saban- said himself you can't stop anybody anymore these days. If THAT GUY changed his entire philosophy from "we're gonna play shutdown D, have a game manager QB and run the ball!" to "let's get that 5* STUD QB ie Tua/Bryce Young and a roster full of NFL WR's and air it out" - well says all you really need to know. And Kudos to Saban for changing on the fly. Lot of 60-70 year old coaches that are set in their ways and do things a certain way wouldn't change up on the fly and evolve with the times so rapidly like that. He did. Just show you how great he truly is.

Abba

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2022, 07:18:06 PM »
great post.

the GOAT college football coach- Nick Saban- said himself you can't stop anybody anymore these days. If THAT GUY changed his entire philosophy from "we're gonna play shutdown D, have a game manager QB and run the ball!" to "let's get that 5* STUD QB ie Tua/Bryce Young and a roster full of NFL WR's and air it out" - well says all you really need to know. And Kudos to Saban for changing on the fly. Lot of 60-70 year old coaches that are set in their ways and do things a certain way wouldn't change up on the fly and evolve with the times so rapidly like that. He did. Just show you how great he truly is.
I feel like you're referring to Ferentz as a coach set in his ways here.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2022, 07:19:53 PM »
Yeah, the fact that Saban was winning NCs and still changed his philosophy is all you need to know.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2022, 07:24:36 PM »
I feel like you're referring to Ferentz as a coach set in his ways here.
was more referring to Harbaugh who is still set in his ways thinking he can win with his 1990s offense and 3 TE sets. Dude took DPJ- maybe the best WR recruit the state of Michigan has EVER produced and turned him into an after thought and 6th rd draft pick. Urbs said himself DPJ was one of the best recruits at WR he's ever recruited and should've been a 1st rd pick. 

Booger Eater's offense is stuck in 1997. Ferentz' offense is stuck in the 1940s.

Mdot21

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 07:25:35 PM »
Yeah, the fact that Saban was winning NCs and still changed his philosophy is all you need to know. 
Yep. Shows you how ELITE Saban is. Most coaches can't evolve on the fly. And you either evolve or you die.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2022, 07:37:58 PM »
It was evidence that he wasn't comparing himself to anyone else, but putting it on himself to improve, regardless of who he was competing with.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2022, 07:46:51 PM »
yup, losing in a blowout sucks and the fans hate it, but with today's offenses, it's just gonna happen once in a while

even to good teams with good coaching staffs
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2022, 07:47:45 PM »
It was evidence that he wasn't comparing himself to anyone else, but putting it on himself to improve, regardless of who he was competing with. 
that's what the truly great ones do. they compete with themselves. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/xQ4cy7sczSg?feature=share

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2022, 08:05:40 PM »
I'm going to try that with my principle on my next performance review....
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MarqHusker

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2022, 09:34:54 PM »
Agree w all of this.    

Cincydawg

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2022, 08:13:06 AM »
There are often exceptions in trends of course.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Changing times, offense vs defense
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 09:39:47 AM »
The networks Have shown a lot of data over the last couple seasons which support this theory, for college football in general. Now more than ever the rules favor the offense. The data clearly support that. 

In coach speak they call it “complementary football“.

You can no longer expect to be a champion if you have a fantastic offense  but a horrible defense, or, a fantastic defense but a horrible offense.  As some teams have shown, if you are really good on one side of the ball you need to at least be decent on the other. 
I agree with all of this and I think your point about the rules favoring the offense is a big factor. Years ago I think the refs tended do give defenders a couple steps to the qb after release. Now they have to pull up sometimes before he releases or their momentum will carry them into him after and they'll get dinged for it.

PI is another one. You almost never see offensive PI called but it happens and I feel that defenders have a lot less freedom to hand-check than they used to.

 

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