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Topic: Chance of winning and the betting line

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Cincydawg

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2018, 11:32:07 AM »
Is anyone surprised that a 7 point dog wins 30% of the time?  One game in three in effect.

And a 14 point dog wins one time in about 15 or so.

Often we don't notice because the game is between ETSU and ECU or something.

What is the most letters in an FBS football team name not counting the "mascot" part?  East Tennessee State University?


ALA2262

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2018, 12:46:41 PM »
Is anyone surprised that a 7 point dog wins 30% of the time?  One game in three in effect.

And a 14 point dog wins one time in about 15 or so.

Often we don't notice because the game is between ETSU and ECU or something.

What is the most letters in an FBS football team name not counting the "mascot" part?  East Tennessee State University?



MTSU would have two more letters than ETSU.

rolltidefan

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2018, 01:43:20 PM »
MTSU would have two more letters than ETSU.
maybe an a&m school. texas a&m's "a&m" doesn't officially stand for anything per their website. alabama a&m is officially the 'alabama agricultural and mechanical university' which is 42. but they are fcs, and maybe a state with a longer name could beat it anyway.
georgia tech has 28. etsu has 28, mtsu has 30. utep has a 28.
ucla has 35.
the citadel has 44 officially, counting the comma. but fcs again.
 
but i think va tech has it won for fbs. Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University - 46.

Cincydawg

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2018, 06:27:09 AM »
Anyway, the next time your team is a 7 point favorite be VERY AFRAID.

I imagine most of us tend to be pessimists anyway.  

We had an interesting discussion a decade or so ago with The Bobs about the home field advantage (HFA).  The odd thing was that the SEC in conference games had the smallest HFA of any P5 conference (about 3 points).  I think "we" often tend to exaggerate the real impact of HFA.  I realize playing at Penn State at night is difference from Indiana of course.

I hope Gatorama has a good cable package in Heaven.

FearlessF

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2018, 09:36:00 AM »
Is anyone surprised that a 7 point dog wins 30% of the time?  One game in three in effect.

And a 14 point dog wins one time in about 15 or so.


no, but only because I've been picking ATS for the past ten or so seasons in a pick 6 pool
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2018, 11:41:16 AM »
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/8/29/1003957/chance-of-a-football-team-winning

I like this link a bit better as it has graphics and more realistic odds I think.
I used this same research to hone my picks for the "Stupid Upsets Game" a few years ago and it has never really worked out for me.  Here was how I used it:
  • A one point dog has a 45% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 0.45 in SUG.  
  • A 3.5 point dog has a 40% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.4 in SUG.  
  • A 5.5 point dog has a 35% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.93 in SUG.  
  • A seven point dog has a 30% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 2.1 in SUG.  
  • An eight point dog has a 20-25% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.6 - 2 in SUG.  
  • An 11.5 point dog has a 15% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.73 in SUG.  
  • A two TD dog has a 5-10% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 0.7 - 1.4 points in SUG.  

Thus, at least in theory, the best SUG picks are in the range of about one TD.  That said, this has never worked out for me as I've never won.  

847badgerfan

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2018, 11:57:49 AM »
I hope Gatorama has a good cable package in Heaven.
LittleBigMatt, Mr. Hoople and NUWildcat too. 
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2018, 12:02:57 PM »
I don't know about that... I think there's a legitimate ground for skill to give you an edge here.
Years ago, I spent an entire season publicly posting and tracking picks on my blog. Over the course of one season (2005 or 2006, can't remember which), I was picking 62.5% ATS, and all you need to beat the vig is 55%. I think college has much more variance (and probably a lot less attention) than picking NFL, and it's a lot easier to spot places where the line is just flat out wrong.
I did this through several ways:
  • I did not pick games involving Purdue or Notre Dame. Too much emotional bias.
  • I did not pick weeks 1 & 2 because it's too early to know what teams look like due to the degree of turnover on college rosters.
  • I primarily picked Big Ten games because those were the programs with which I had a high degree of familiarity.
  • Outside the Big Ten, I looked for games where I had a gut feel that the spread might be "wrong", and if my additional research backed up that claim, I included it in my spread tracking.

Essentially what I found was that I'd be picking about 6-8 games per week. Assuming 8 games per week and betting $110 per game (to win $100, just using this for the math), I'd average winning 5 bets per week and losing 3. So I'd gain $500 per week vs a loss of $330, or $170 per week. Averaged over a season, I could've pulled down a good $1500 or so.

The follow-up question, of course, is "well then why don't you do it?"

To that I say this... It takes a lot of time and effort to put into those picks. At the time I didn't really want to devote $800 a week to a betting pool, knowing that a bad week could hit me hard. And all that work and research over a span of 3-4 months, for only $1500? It just wasn't a big enough win to justify the time and risk. If I'd actually wanted to make $1500 over that time, I probably could have found much less risky ways to do so.

To make enough money to be worth it also meant risking a lot more, and especially in 2005/2006 I didn't have a significantly higher bankroll (say betting $550 per game x 8 per week) to do it.

That said, I'd bet that a lot of us on this site could pick games at a money-winning clip. Don't you think you could do better than a 55% record against the spread if you really put your mind to it?
I learned gambling from some guys who lived on my floor freshman year.  They were booking bets and I made a few small bets with them and learned from them how it worked.  They absorbed WAY too much risk and ended up having to drop out and get jobs to pay everyone back.  
What I learned was that it was way to risky for me to want to be a bookie and I'm generally a lot less risk averse than the average bear.  The problem is this:
The bookie takes 10% from the losers but for the bookie that only works out to 5% of the total.  If you are booking $10k a week in bets that 5% is only $500/week.  Worse, it isn't really even that high.  Bets tend to be very regional.  Ie, these guys were booking bets in a dorm at Ohio State so nearly every week they had more bet on tOSU than against tOSU.  Explanation for the initiated:
If I'm a bookie and bwar bets $1,000 on Purdue+10.5 at Wisconsin while badge bets $1,000 on Wisconsin-10.5 vs Purdue this is AWESOME for me.  Either way I make $100:  
  • If Purdue wins or loses by <10.5 I get $1,100 from badge and give $1,000 to bwar.  
  • If Wisconsin wins by >10.5 I get $1,100 from bwar and give $1,000 to badge.  

The problem for me, as the hypothetical bookie, is if badge and bwar bet the same way.  Lets say they each bet $1,000 on PU+10.5.  Now the possibilities are:
  • If Wisconsin wins by >10.5 then I get $1,100 each from bwar and badge and pocket $2,200.  
  • If Purdue wins or loses by <10.5 then I owe bwar and badge $1,000 each and I'm out $2k.  
The only way for me, as the hypothetical bookie, to get out of having effectively bet $2k on UW+10.5 is to pass that bet along by calling a bigger bookie and betting $2k on Purdue+10.5.  The problem is that I don't make any money at all that way.  Now all am is a pass-through.  If Purdue wins or loses by >10.5 then I get $2k from my bookie and give it all to bwar and badge.  If Wisconsin wins by >10.5 then I take bwar's and badge's money and give it to my bookie.  

Thus, even if I could book $10k/week in bets I'd still have to pass a decent percentage of it on.  These two kids were booking bets at Ohio State.  They tended to get a bunch of bets for Ohio State from naive young Buckeye fans.  If Ohio State didn't cover the spread these two kids made a bunch of cash but if they did, well they weren't smart enough to pass their losers on so they were screwed.  

Then, on top of that you have the issue of collections.  There is a reason that the mob breaks people's kneecaps if they don't pay.  Gambling is illegal.  In the US our courts cannot be used to collect money earned through illegal means.  Therefore, if either bwar or badge refuse to pay I'm on my own to collect the money and my clients are not going to be interested in rain-checks or "bookie credit".  They want cash.  

Obviously the collectibility issue is bigger when you take bets from people you don't know well.  If you keep your operation small it might not be a problem at all but you can't make any money running a small bookie operation.  You could also eliminate collections issues by requiring payment upfront but again, you can't run a large bookie operation with that restriction.  If you want to make a decent amount of money at it you have to be booking at least $10k/week.  Even then you are going to net less than $500/week by the time you back out for bets that you have to pass on to a bigger bookie and/or collections issues.  For that amount of work it just isn't worth it.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2018, 12:12:52 PM »
LittleBigMatt, Mr. Hoople and NUWildcat too.
I figure they are together.  Sad list, thanks for posting.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2018, 12:24:06 PM »
medina,

Agreed... Being a small-time bookie is a lot of headache and risk for not so much money. Basically if you're a small-time bookie, you're not only facilitating gambling, you're essentially gambling yourself not only that you won't have too much action go against you and wipe out your ability to repay your winners, but also gambling that you can collect from your losers.

rolltidefan

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2018, 12:37:49 PM »
I used this same research to hone my picks for the "Stupid Upsets Game" a few years ago and it has never really worked out for me.  Here was how I used it:
  • A one point dog has a 45% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 0.45 in SUG.  
  • A 3.5 point dog has a 40% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.4 in SUG.  
  • A 5.5 point dog has a 35% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.93 in SUG.  
  • A seven point dog has a 30% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 2.1 in SUG.  
  • An eight point dog has a 20-25% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.6 - 2 in SUG.  
  • An 11.5 point dog has a 15% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 1.73 in SUG.  
  • A two TD dog has a 5-10% chance of winning so, on average, that pick is worth 0.7 - 1.4 points in SUG.  

Thus, at least in theory, the best SUG picks are in the range of about one TD.  That said, this has never worked out for me as I've never won.  
i always look for home dogs, and particularly early in season, non-conf long distance home dogs.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2018, 12:38:48 PM »
Somebody mentioned Roulette and "becoming an expert" at it.  In case anyone is unaware, that is funny because Roulette is a game in which there is literally zero advantage to "being an expert".  A Roulette wheel has 38 spots and pays such that it would be exactly fair (ie, you would neither make nor lose any money in the long-run) if there were 36.  Effectively the two green spots (known as 0 and 00) are the casino's take.  It pays 36/38 or 94.7368%.  Some bets to illustrate the example:
  • If you bet either red or black you will win, on average, 18 out of 38 times and it pays 2:1.  If you bet $10 on red 38 times you will, on average, win 18 times.  You will spend $380 and win $360 (18*20) thus losing $20 out of $380 which is 5.2632%
  • If you bet 1-12, 13-24, or 25-36 you will win, on average, 12 out of 38 times and it pays 3:1.  If you bet $10 each of 38 times you will win, on average 12 times.  You will spend $380 and win $360 (12*30) thus losing $20 out of $380 which is 5.2632%.  
  • If you bet a particular number (any of the 38) you will win, on average, once out of 38 times and it pays 36:1.  If you bet $10 on a particular number 38 times you will, on average win once.  You will spend $380 and win $360 (1*360) thus losing $20 out of $380 which is 5.2632%.  

The point is that Roulette isn't like blackjack or craps in which some bets are better than others and you need to know what you are doing in order to maximize your odds.  Instead, every Roulette bet has the exact same 94.7368% average payout so it makes absolutely no difference what you bet.  

I once read about some guys who had a theory that was almost (but not quite) foolproof to make a relatively small gain by playing Roulette.  Here is the theory:

Suppose you have $1,000 and you really need $1,050.  You could do this:
  • Bet $50 on red on a Roulette table.  If you win you'll have the $1,050 and you can walk away up $50.  If you lose:
  • You now have $950.  Bet $100 on red on a Roulette table.  If you win you'll have $1,050 and you can walk away up $50.  If you lose:
  • You now have $850.  Bet $200 on red on a Roulette table.  If you win you'll have $1,050 and you can walk away up $50.  If you lose:
  • You now have $650.  Bet $500 on red on a Roulette table.  If you win you'll have $1,050 and you can walk away up $50.  If you lose:
  • You now have $150.  Bet $112.50 on a corner (four numbers).  If you win it pays 9:1 so your $112.50 will become $1,012.50 and, when you add that to the $37.50 that you didn't bet you will now have $1,050 and you can walk away up $50.  If you lose:
  • You now have $37.50.  Bet $28.93 on a particular number. If you win it pays 36:1 so your $28.93 will become $1,041.48 and, you will still have the $8.58 that you didn't bet so you can walk away up $50.  If you lose:
  • You now have $8.58.  There is no bet on a Roulette table that can turn $8.58 into $1,050.  

Ignoring #5-7 (because the longer odds are more complicated) it is ALMOST a sure bet than you can "make" 5% on a Roulette table by employing steps 1-4.  If you are a little less greedy and you only want to "make" 2.5% the odds are even better (near, but not quite perfect).  

From what I remember of statistics (correct me if I am wrong here):
  • Chance of losing bet #1 is 52.63% (20 out of 38).   
  • Chance of losing bet #1 AND bet #2 is 27.70% (.5263*.5263).  
  • Chance of losing bet #1 AND bet #2 AND bet #3 is 14.579% (.5263^3).  
  • Chance of losing bet #1 AND bet #2 AND bet #3 AND bet #4 is 7.68% (.5263^4).  

Thus, steps #1-4 give you a roughly 94% chance of "making" 5% on your money.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2018, 12:49:03 PM »
medina,
Agreed... Being a small-time bookie is a lot of headache and risk for not so much money. Basically if you're a small-time bookie, you're not only facilitating gambling, you're essentially gambling yourself not only that you won't have too much action go against you and wipe out your ability to repay your winners, but also gambling that you can collect from your losers.
Exactly and, unfortunately for those two guys, they failed to realize it.  

Another example that turned me off of gambling:
I don't remember the exact $$$$'s or the date but when I was in school Tyson was still knocking everybody out.  He had won a bunch of fights and the pay-per-view customers were starting to complain because they had paid big money for a fight and then ended up only getting a couple rounds or less.  This became a major story.  It became such a big story that the PPV people announced that, for this particular fight they would cap the PPV fee based on time such that if one of the fighters (Tyson - everyone assumed) knocked out his opponent in the first round the PPV viewers would only have to pay a limited charge.  

I might be wrong, but I've LONG believed that you could make money betting boxing simply by figuring out which result was best for Don King and simply betting on that.  When I heard these news stories about PPV backlash and whatnot I figured Tyson was about to lose.  Tyson was something like a 20:1 favorite in this fight (maybe more, I don't remember).  I, as a broke college kid, managed to scrounge up $50 and I wanted to bet my $50 on the underdog.  I didn't have a bookie but my roommate did so I asked him to make the bet for me.  My roommate told be (before the fight, he didn't take my winnings and screw me) that his bookie wouldn't take it.  

I can completely understand the bookie's predicament.  In order to balance off my $50 bet on the underdog he would have needed $1,000 worth of bets on Tyson and practically nobody bets favorites that big.  What is the fun in betting $200 to win $10?  Still, it really ticked me off especially when Tyson lost just like I figured he would.  
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 12:50:39 PM by medinabuckeye1 »

Cincydawg

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Re: Chance of winning and the betting line
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2018, 03:15:51 PM »
I know a sure fire way to make a small fortune on stock options.

 

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