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Topic: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)

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ELA

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #196 on: January 14, 2020, 03:50:45 PM »
There were 86 pass attempts in last nights championship game.  Probably 90+ if you include scrambles.  Zero holding calls.  Zero interceptions.  I'd hate to be a DC in CF right now.  They must feel as if they're calling defense in a 7v7 league. 
One really soft Offensive PI call.  So you've got that.  If people want this style of football, I guess, but it's not for me.  I'm not even sure what the defensive counterpunch to this is?

Entropy

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #197 on: January 14, 2020, 03:59:22 PM »
I'm an option football guy at heart.   That doesn't mean I hate the forward pass, but games like last night just fail to hold my interest.   Sure, if your team was involved, that changes the equation.  But I'd rather watch a game like Auburn/Minn or Oregon/Wisky than what was on display last night.   I know they mean less, but for my personal style preferences, those other games hold my attention better.   

TyphonInc

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #198 on: January 14, 2020, 04:41:48 PM »
Joe Brady has to be bucking for a promotion methinks.  Burrow was basically an afterthought at OSU and Brady made him the best QB in all of CFB at LSU.

LSU is going to have to make him co-OC or something like that soon, otherwise he'll grab another prime gig (maybe even in the NFL).

I disagree. Burrow was ahead of the future NFL 1st round draft, single season multiple B1G record holder, until his thumb injury. That's not an after thought.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #199 on: January 14, 2020, 05:54:30 PM »
It seems now that Bama and LSU have reluctantly and successfully gone to the big offense, enough defense trend...who still hasn't?  Stanford?  Michigan?  MSU?  Georgia?
.
Anywho.  If Bama doesn't win the West next year, I see them going back to their previous style of bullying you with talent and depth and defense.  Can a program do that?  Go back? 
With Tua gone, they may try to.  It'll be interesting to me.
I think it's, as I've said before, an attempt to avoid variance.

When you're stronger than your opponent, the most statistically sound strategy is to wear them down, avoid mistakes, play the field position game, etc. The idea is that because you're better than your opponent, you want to limit possessions, limit their big-play ability, and generally rely on you being better to win a game. For that, you want a low-risk, low-variance offensive philosophy, and just trust your ability. It's Tresselball.

When you're weaker than your opponent, you have to rely on higher-risk, but higher-reward strategies. You're not going to beat your opponent in straight-up, hat-on-hat, big boy football. So you go for more aggressive offense, which has big-play potential, but more chances for downside variance (turnovers, two incompletions in a row basically killing a drive, etc). It means that on a good day you can beat a team that you absolutely shouldn't beat. But on a bad day, it might mean that a team that would ordinarily beat you by 14 beats you by 35 because you lose the TO margin and have too many three-and-outs. 

Now, when you're a strong opponent AND have a wide-open offense, you can be insanely explosive. If an aggressive offensive strategy can make an average-talent team much more explosive, it can make an elite-talent team truly unstoppable. But... It doesn't eliminate the inherent variance of an aggressive offense. It means that on a bad day, you're more likely to lose to an inferior team than if you had a less aggressive but lower-variance offense. 

But there's a downside to the less-aggressive low-variance offense too... If you're facing a high-variance but inferior team, and they're having a good day, you may not have the firepower necessary to beat them--even if you played well offensively. It's a lot easier as a coach to defend your job if your team played well and your inferior opponent just played out-of-their-minds better, than if you play poorly and lose to an inferior team that just played average.

What I think we're seeing is that it's more likely that as coaches start to accept the wisdom of analytics, they're starting to see that being risk-averse is worse in the long run, even if it means they have to accept some variance. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #200 on: January 14, 2020, 05:56:09 PM »
One really soft Offensive PI call.  So you've got that.  If people want this style of football, I guess, but it's not for me.  I'm not even sure what the defensive counterpunch to this is?
Man-to-man across the board and blitzing like a banshee? 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #201 on: January 14, 2020, 06:12:19 PM »
Well Clemson did it a little and Auburn did it vs LSU - going into a 4-1-7 defense.  Ideally with maybe 3 DEs and a speedy LB, and more CBs than safeties.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #202 on: January 14, 2020, 06:13:35 PM »
I think it's, as I've said before, an attempt to avoid variance.

When you're stronger than your opponent, the most statistically sound strategy is to wear them down, avoid mistakes, play the field position game, etc. The idea is that because you're better than your opponent, you want to limit possessions, limit their big-play ability, and generally rely on you being better to win a game. For that, you want a low-risk, low-variance offensive philosophy, and just trust your ability. It's Tresselball.

When you're weaker than your opponent, you have to rely on higher-risk, but higher-reward strategies. You're not going to beat your opponent in straight-up, hat-on-hat, big boy football. So you go for more aggressive offense, which has big-play potential, but more chances for downside variance (turnovers, two incompletions in a row basically killing a drive, etc). It means that on a good day you can beat a team that you absolutely shouldn't beat. But on a bad day, it might mean that a team that would ordinarily beat you by 14 beats you by 35 because you lose the TO margin and have too many three-and-outs.

Now, when you're a strong opponent AND have a wide-open offense, you can be insanely explosive. If an aggressive offensive strategy can make an average-talent team much more explosive, it can make an elite-talent team truly unstoppable. But... It doesn't eliminate the inherent variance of an aggressive offense. It means that on a bad day, you're more likely to lose to an inferior team than if you had a less aggressive but lower-variance offense.

But there's a downside to the less-aggressive low-variance offense too... If you're facing a high-variance but inferior team, and they're having a good day, you may not have the firepower necessary to beat them--even if you played well offensively. It's a lot easier as a coach to defend your job if your team played well and your inferior opponent just played out-of-their-minds better, than if you play poorly and lose to an inferior team that just played average.

What I think we're seeing is that it's more likely that as coaches start to accept the wisdom of analytics, they're starting to see that being risk-averse is worse in the long run, even if it means they have to accept some variance.
Well my thing is that no matter who the HC or DC is, once you go full-bore, crazy offense on your team, your defense is going to suffer, period.  Alabama's defense hasn't been as good since Tua took over.  There's myriad reasons, but one causes the other.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #203 on: January 14, 2020, 07:00:23 PM »
I think it's, as I've said before, an attempt to avoid variance.

When you're stronger than your opponent, the most statistically sound strategy is to wear them down, avoid mistakes, play the field position game, etc. The idea is that because you're better than your opponent, you want to limit possessions, limit their big-play ability, and generally rely on you being better to win a game. For that, you want a low-risk, low-variance offensive philosophy, and just trust your ability. It's Tresselball.

When you're weaker than your opponent, you have to rely on higher-risk, but higher-reward strategies. You're not going to beat your opponent in straight-up, hat-on-hat, big boy football. So you go for more aggressive offense, which has big-play potential, but more chances for downside variance (turnovers, two incompletions in a row basically killing a drive, etc). It means that on a good day you can beat a team that you absolutely shouldn't beat. But on a bad day, it might mean that a team that would ordinarily beat you by 14 beats you by 35 because you lose the TO margin and have too many three-and-outs.

Now, when you're a strong opponent AND have a wide-open offense, you can be insanely explosive. If an aggressive offensive strategy can make an average-talent team much more explosive, it can make an elite-talent team truly unstoppable. But... It doesn't eliminate the inherent variance of an aggressive offense. It means that on a bad day, you're more likely to lose to an inferior team than if you had a less aggressive but lower-variance offense.

But there's a downside to the less-aggressive low-variance offense too... If you're facing a high-variance but inferior team, and they're having a good day, you may not have the firepower necessary to beat them--even if you played well offensively. It's a lot easier as a coach to defend your job if your team played well and your inferior opponent just played out-of-their-minds better, than if you play poorly and lose to an inferior team that just played average.

What I think we're seeing is that it's more likely that as coaches start to accept the wisdom of analytics, they're starting to see that being risk-averse is worse in the long run, even if it means they have to accept some variance.
With all respect, I have to disagree with a central tenet.

Low possessions, field position are not favorite friendly. Wearing down sort of is. Even if you’re low-risk, slowing it down in fact makes it high variance.

It’s similar to a gambling expected value problem. The longer one gambles, the more likely the odds are to settle on whoever has the edge. If you’re a better poker player than me, I want to play fewer hands rather than more, because long term, I’m in trouble. It’s the same way a three-game series is higher variance than a seven game series.

What the thing you mentioned about the high variance underdog I think partially relies of the fact favorites historically played the way you said, and those quirky tactics were outliers that got the Tress teams out of comfort zones.

But if there’s a favorite comfortable with tempo, trying to track meet them just makes it likely you give up 70. Shoot, look at what Army did to Oklahoma and Michigan. The knights needed fewer breaks because the gave had literally less football. 

MaximumSam

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #204 on: January 14, 2020, 08:02:28 PM »
Joe Brady headed to the Panthers. It's a real question what LSU looks like next year after having one of the best seasons of all time.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #205 on: January 14, 2020, 10:06:31 PM »
Joe Brady headed to the Panthers. It's a real question what LSU looks like next year after having one of the best seasons of all time.
:88:
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #206 on: January 14, 2020, 10:37:27 PM »
Well Clemson did it a little and Auburn did it vs LSU - going into a 4-1-7 defense.  Ideally with maybe 3 DEs and a speedy LB, and more CBs than safeties.
I'm pretty sure that's against the rules.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #207 on: January 14, 2020, 10:56:22 PM »
I'm pretty sure that's against the rules.
That's what makes it so smart....:72:
.
3-1-7
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Drew4UTk

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #208 on: January 14, 2020, 11:21:38 PM »
a lot of cryptic tweets from one Brian Mauer, fr. Tennessee.... a highly touted talent but in need of a weight room... some suggesting a transfer to LSU in coming... would be interesting.  he's got the arm, mobility, and the moxy- he just needs some weight before he starts/continues throwing it at senior LB's.    JG staying and Bailey in the wings seems to have prompted speculation, and then his recent tweets suggest he's about to make some sort of move and an announcement is forthcoming... and then the ties to LSU... makes it interesting... 

this dang portal... changes the landscape of the game by my reckoning. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFP National Championship game: #1 LSU (14-0) vs #3 Clemson (14-0)
« Reply #209 on: January 14, 2020, 11:28:12 PM »
Any QB running to Red Stick with Brady gone might need to rethink things.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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