header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion

 (Read 24984 times)

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12276
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2018, 07:48:40 PM »
Such as?
Maybe the year that both Boise St and TCU finished undefeated (along with Cincinnati)? BSU used to schedule pretty tough, and had a several-year run of excellence rather than UCF which jumped up from bad results to undefeated really quickly.
But that doesn't necessarily jive, as they weren't passed over by 11-1 non-champs. There were only 2 slots in those days and there were two P5 undefeated teams ahead of them.
In all honesty, undefeated G5 teams are not all that common. Not to say they're truly rare, but for *any* team to finish undefeated is difficult. Which is why I think they should have a legitimate shot at finally proving they're worthy.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13111
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #225 on: January 11, 2018, 07:58:08 PM »

Maybe the year that both Boise St and TCU finished undefeated (along with Cincinnati)? BSU used to schedule pretty tough, and had a several-year run of excellence rather than UCF which jumped up from bad results to undefeated really quickly.
But that doesn't necessarily jive, as they weren't passed over by 11-1 non-champs. There were only 2 slots in those days and there were two P5 undefeated teams ahead of them.
In all honesty, undefeated G5 teams are not all that common. Not to say they're truly rare, but for *any* team to finish undefeated is difficult. Which is why I think they should have a legitimate shot at finally proving they're worthy.
Definitely. The combo of a strong G5 team along with what was the weakest field of P5 teams yet is the issue. The committee chose an Alabama team that didn't win it conference, division, or any games over great teams. If an undefeated G5 team can't make it in then, when can it?

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12276
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #226 on: January 11, 2018, 08:10:18 PM »
FYI I don't think UCF was "one of the best 4 teams in the country". I honestly don't. 

I still think they should've gotten a shot. I don't care if they'd lost 50-0 in the semifinals. They deserved a shot. 

CousinFreddie

  • Player
  • ****
  • Posts: 861
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #227 on: January 11, 2018, 09:23:43 PM »
One thing to keep in mind about UCF and its OOC schedule is that it's pretty challenging to get top, particularly helmet, schools on the calendar.  Usually it's on a five year horizon or longer.  They did manage to calendar Georgia Tech who some years can be pretty dangerous from the ACC and then Maryland, which usually is a weak sister, but still is a B1G team.  

Then the AAC itself has teams that some years are really good such as USF, Houston, Cincy ... this year Memphis, and of course UCF.  Sure it's not as tough a schedule you find in a P5 conference.  Yet they've made an honest OOC effort over the years: Michigan in 2016, Stanford and South Carolina in 2015, Penn St and Missouri in 2014, etc.  Hard to fault 'em.

So, anyway, I agree they should have gotten a shot.  Hindsight is 20-20, particularly with that bowl victory over Auburn, and there aren't any easy fixes here.  But I would have enjoyed seeing what they could do vs any of the playoff teams (except maybe OU ;^)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:26:07 PM by CousinFreddie »

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18920
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #228 on: January 11, 2018, 11:07:05 PM »
2016 Western Michigan 13-0
2010 TCU 12-0
2009 Cincinnati 12-0
2009 TCU 12-0
2009 Boise State 13-0
2008 Utah 12-0
2008 Boise State 12-0
2007 Hawai'i 12-0
2006 Boise State 12-0
2004 Utah 11-0
2004 Boise State 11-0
1999 Marshall 12-0
1998 Tulane 11-0


“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18920
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #229 on: January 11, 2018, 11:15:36 PM »
2016 Western Michigan 13-0   L Cotton Bowl vs #8 Wis
2010 TCU 12-0   W Rose Bowl vs #4 Wis
2009 Cincinnati 12-0   L Sugar Bowl vs #5 UF
2009 TCU 12-0   L Fiesta Bowl vs #6 Boise
2009 Boise State 13-0   W Fiesta Bowl vs #3 TCU
2008 Utah 12-0   W Sugar Bowl vs #4 ALA
2008 Boise State 12-0   L Poinsettia Bowl vs #11 TCU
2007 Hawai'i 12-0   L Sugar Bowl vs #4 UGA
2006 Boise State 12-0   W Fiesta Bowl vs #7 OU
2004 Utah 11-0   W Fiesta Bowl vs # 19 Pitt
2004 Boise State 11-0   L Liberty Bowl vs #7 UL
1999 Marshall 12-0   W Motor City Bowl vs Unranked BYU
1998 Tulane 11-0   W Liberty Bowl vs Unranked BYU



“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18920
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #230 on: January 11, 2018, 11:24:44 PM »
3-3 vs other G5
4-3 vs P5

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7872
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #231 on: January 11, 2018, 11:34:31 PM »
I don't disagree, I just get tired of the complaining from the G5 fans.  Those conference schedules are complete crap so don't complain when you play a crap OOC, a crap conference schedule and don't get into the CFP.  Sure, Ohio State and Bama have advantages that UCF couldn't dream of, but I'm not interested in making a level playing field, I'm interested in putting the best four teams in the country into the CFP.  

I don't think you're interested in getting the four best teams in. I think you're interested in getting the four most accomplished in. And that's fine. In the current context, it's a system that disqualifies half the teams at this level. And if we're honest about it, that's fine. What's weird is the anger from those in the privileged spot ("complete crap" crap, crap, crap). This is a sport that hates upstarts, a fact that never stops seeming a hint weird. 

UCF has a humongous advantage if we simply let in all Conference Champions or select solely based on record because their schedule is ridiculously easy compared to any P5 team.  They don't have the week-in, week-out grind of playing competent opponents.  Really?  What were UCF's best wins (pre-bowl because we are talking about at the time of selection)?  Memphis (twice, home and neutral)?  
Using Sagrin's rankings, Ohio State played (final ranking because I can't find pre-bowl):
  • #4 Penn State, won at home
  • #6 Oklahoma, lost at home
  • #7 Wisconsin, won at a neutral site
  • #18 Iowa, lost on the road
  • #23 Michigan State, won at home
  • #26 Michigan, won on the road

#32 Memphis was UCF's best pre-bowl opponent so Ohio State had six games against better teams than the best team UCF played all year.  
Here is the same list for Bama:
  • #8 Auburn, lost on the road
  • #17 MissSt, won on the road
  • #19 LSU, won at home
  • #28 Florida State, won at a neutral site

So Bama was 3-1 in four games against teams better than any team that UCF played and Ohio State was 4-2 in six games against such teams.  It is NOT CLOSE.  A G5 team needs to play a ridiculous OOC to get close to even but it also isn't impossible.  It was pointed out upthread that last year Houston beat P5 Champion Oklahoma and also played Louisville.  That is the kind of schedule that could make it.  If UCF had replaced Austin Peay and Maryland with quality OOC opponents then I think they would have had an argument.  

We come back to that "humongous" advantage. Assuming every UCF team is of top-10ish quality, then they would totally have an advantage. But they're not. UCF was winless three years ago. Did they have a massive advantage because the league was weaker? Do mid-major teams have an easier time getting into the basketball tournament? Nope. If UCF builds a top-10 team, it definitely has an advantage in going undefeated (but it's worlds harder to build that team). It has a disadvantage in that it needs everything to line up to have a shot. Again, it's an unbalanced sport. No need for the haves to complain about those advantages held by the have-nots 

What's interesting about the Oklahoma/Louisville thing is it shows how hard that is. If they catch those teams two years prior, it's 8-5 Oklahoma and 9-4 Louisville that didn't beat a team with a pulse. Houston didn't play for the Cardinals to get a Heisman winner (Oklahoma under Stoops was probably always a good bet, granted I bet Houston never thought it would have a team that could win)

Again, I don't think UCF should've made it in the playoff. But I think there's nothing wrong with thumbing their nose from the kids table to which they've been sent. And I think the offense taken by those on top often feels petty. "You're not in this club because you don't DESERVE it." Those kids and coaches earned what they could. 

I wouldn't mind a world where they're paid off to go have their own playoff. In some ways it seems easier than having them show up and give P5 teams a harder time than they want (at least a lot of P5 feelings would be spared). 

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18920
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #232 on: January 12, 2018, 12:21:50 AM »
If they have a playoff that lets conference champs of non-P5 conferences in, why wouldn't Arizona State move to the MWC and get into the playoffs every year?  Why wouldn't Illinois move to the MAC?  

The G5 or Other5 or whatever you want to call them are voluntarily participating in a system in which they cannot finish #1.  That's an odd choice, but it has been their choice.  Yes, they should move down.  And yet year after year, FCS teams keep jumping up instead, to join in with the ever-growing group of football teams that have no chance at #1.  Seems to me these ADs at Georgia State and App State and UTSA have some 'splainin' to do to the actual players themselves.

Seems odd.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Kris61

  • Red Shirt
  • ***
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 291
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #233 on: January 12, 2018, 06:35:22 AM »
If they have a playoff that lets conference champs of non-P5 conferences in, why wouldn't Arizona State move to the MWC and get into the playoffs every year?  Why wouldn't Illinois move to the MAC?  

The G5 or Other5 or whatever you want to call them are voluntarily participating in a system in which they cannot finish #1.  That's an odd choice, but it has been their choice.  Yes, they should move down.  And yet year after year, FCS teams keep jumping up instead, to join in with the ever-growing group of football teams that have no chance at #1.  Seems to me these ADs at Georgia State and App State and UTSA have some 'splainin' to do to the actual players themselves.

Seems odd.
Money. As soon ASU moves to the MWC their wallet gets much lighter.  Besides that, while they might have an advantage on the field when they first move eventually they would be what every other MWC team is, a MWC team. And recruiting would eventually reflect that.  The biggest reason kids go to P5 schools is that they are P5 schools. They know the advantages.

Kris61

  • Red Shirt
  • ***
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 291
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #234 on: January 12, 2018, 06:40:33 AM »
If they have a playoff that lets conference champs of non-P5 conferences in, why wouldn't Arizona State move to the MWC and get into the playoffs every year?  Why wouldn't Illinois move to the MAC?  

The G5 or Other5 or whatever you want to call them are voluntarily participating in a system in which they cannot finish #1.  That's an odd choice, but it has been their choice.  Yes, they should move down.  And yet year after year, FCS teams keep jumping up instead, to join in with the ever-growing group of football teams that have no chance at #1.  Seems to me these ADs at Georgia State and App State and UTSA have some 'splainin' to do to the actual players themselves.

Seems odd.
I agree about schools moving up. About 10 years ago I was talking to an Appalachian St fan/alum at a work function. He said he hoped App St never moved up.  He enjoyed playing FCS level and being relevant and playing for something meaningful every year.
I remember him saying it would suck to join the Sun Belt and even if you win it you play in some crap bowl no one cares about.  Of course, we know where App St is now...

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18920
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #235 on: January 12, 2018, 07:46:47 AM »
That's the issue - but in the UCF vein, let's look at Utah.  The Utes have multiple undefeated seasons as a G5 school within a 5-year period and have nothing to show for it.  Okay, they say, we'll join a P5 conference, so that our next undefeated season yields a championship (what I'm saying UCF needs to do).  

Great.  What's Utah done since joining the big boys?  Jack squat.  Hmm, I wonder why?  Life's harder without a high school schedule.  UCF would realize that, too, but then the championships are earned.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7872
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #236 on: January 12, 2018, 08:32:55 AM »
If they have a playoff that lets conference champs of non-P5 conferences in, why wouldn't Arizona State move to the MWC and get into the playoffs every year?  Why wouldn't Illinois move to the MAC?  

The G5 or Other5 or whatever you want to call them are voluntarily participating in a system in which they cannot finish #1.  That's an odd choice, but it has been their choice.  Yes, they should move down.  And yet year after year, FCS teams keep jumping up instead, to join in with the ever-growing group of football teams that have no chance at #1.  Seems to me these ADs at Georgia State and App State and UTSA have some 'splainin' to do to the actual players themselves.

Seems odd.
They don’t really choose these things. College football grows in weird ways, i.e. the BCS/playoff happenening. They idea a school chooses things on the basis of being able to make the playoff simply has no ground in reality. 
It’s also a shortsighted outlook. We have another sport in college basketball that is more than half one-big leagues. No one is clamoring to go down becuase that’s not the way this works. 
If UCF could chose to get kicked around at the bottom of the SEC right now. It would. If I said they’d never make even an outsider playoff case, they’d still take it, becuase being playoff eligible has just about jack squat to do with conference affiliation. 

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7872
  • Liked:
Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #237 on: January 12, 2018, 08:36:20 AM »
That's the issue - but in the UCF vein, let's look at Utah.  The Utes have multiple undefeated seasons as a G5 school within a 5-year period and have nothing to show for it.  Okay, they say, we'll join a P5 conference, so that our next undefeated season yields a championship (what I'm saying UCF needs to do).  

Great.  What's Utah done since joining the big boys?  Jack squat.  Hmm, I wonder why?  Life's harder without a high school schedule.  UCF would realize that, too, but then the championships are earned.
Utah won 28 games in three years, rising to No. 3 one year and No. 11 the next.
TCU won 11 games three times in four years and has three top-10 finishes. 
It’s weird, these teams seem to do more than jack squat.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.