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Topic: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #210 on: January 11, 2018, 03:49:45 PM »
quick correction, 2011 didn't leave out multiple 1 loss conf champs, it left out 1, ok st. all other conf champs had 2+ losses pre-bowl selection.
Ahh, for some reason I had thought Stanford was the PAC champ, but didn't realize they were 11-1 without getting into the CCG due to the H2H against Oregon. My mistake.

Kris61

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2018, 03:50:25 PM »
Agreed on the minor point. But again, that actually helps reduce the "mulligan" or "double mulligan" likelihood, albeit at the expense of the increased likelihood that an unworthy conference champ will get in.
But I'd argue that the Oklahoma loss actually DID keep OSU out. Had OSU beaten Oklahoma, they most assuredly would have gotten in over Alabama. Of course, that gives them another marquee win. But let's say OSU hadn't scheduled Oklahoma, replacing them with, say, Syracuse. A 12-1 OSU with a win over Syracuse and the loss to Iowa probably STILL would have gotten in over Bama. Yes, their loss was worse, but their conference championship would have likely elevated them.
So what the committee is basically telling teams is "schedule easier OOC because it'll help you get in." OSU scheduled tough OOC and ended up getting penalized for it.
The takeaway from 2017 is that we'll likely see fewer marquee OOC matchups, not more, as the committee has basically shown that # of losses is a lot more important than OOC SOS.
I think if you make the conference championship an auto-bid, helmet teams might be willing to take on more OOC chances since they know those games will prepare them better for conference play where they really need to be on top.

That isn’t what the committee is telling teams.  The committee rewards teams when they schedule and WIN.  Scheduling tough is only part of it.  Winning is the other part.  Last year, if Ohio St has a win over Bowling Green instead of Oklahoma there is a good chance they don’t make it in without a conference championship.
Scheduling tough is high risk/high reward.  Yeah, a loss can hurt but a win can really help you too.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #212 on: January 11, 2018, 03:52:21 PM »
Agreed on the minor point. But again, that actually helps reduce the "mulligan" or "double mulligan" likelihood, albeit at the expense of the increased likelihood that an unworthy conference champ will get in.
But I'd argue that the Oklahoma loss actually DID keep OSU out. Had OSU beaten Oklahoma, they most assuredly would have gotten in over Alabama. Of course, that gives them another marquee win. But let's say OSU hadn't scheduled Oklahoma, replacing them with, say, Syracuse. A 12-1 OSU with a win over Syracuse and the loss to Iowa probably STILL would have gotten in over Bama. Yes, their loss was worse, but their conference championship would have likely elevated them.
So what the committee is basically telling teams is "schedule easier OOC because it'll help you get in." OSU scheduled tough OOC and ended up getting penalized for it.
The takeaway from 2017 is that we'll likely see fewer marquee OOC matchups, not more, as the committee has basically shown that # of losses is a lot more important than OOC SOS.
I think if you make the conference championship an auto-bid, helmet teams might be willing to take on more OOC chances since they know those games will prepare them better for conference play where they really need to be on top.
The problem is that it is a double-edged sword.  If you have auto-bids for P5 Champions then maybe marquee teams will take on more marquee OOC opponents but the games won't matter.  

I want good OOC games that matter!  

That is a tougher nut to crack.  

For all the PSU fans bellyaching about Ohio State jumping them in 2016 I thought that was a good thing because I thought the CFP was sending a message that SoS matters.  Ohio State's OOC win over Oklahoma in 2016 mattered and got the Buckeyes in ahead of PSU.  I thought that was a good thing because I thought it would encourage helmet teams to play marquee OOC match-ups.  

The problem is that when 2016 is viewed in conjunction with 2017 it doesn't look that way anymore.  Instead, it simply looks like the P5 teams with the fewest losses will get in and if that is the case then the logical thing for a P5 team to do is, as Bill Snyder used to say, "Never Schedule a Loss".  

I think you are right, all else being equal, if Ohio State had defeated some crap opponent in week two instead of challenging themselves and coming up short against B12 Champion (to be) and Playoff team (to be) Oklahoma, then Ohio State would have gotten in over Bama as a 12-1 B1G Champion with a weak OOC.  I do NOT like that message being sent by the committee.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #213 on: January 11, 2018, 03:56:06 PM »
That isn’t what the committee is telling teams.  The committee rewards teams when they schedule and WIN.  Scheduling tough is only part of it.  Winning is the other part.  Last year, if Ohio St has a win over Bowling Green instead of Oklahoma there is a good chance they don’t make it in without a conference championship.
Scheduling tough is high risk/high reward.  Yeah, a loss can hurt but a win can really help you too.
I get that, but it is a zero sum game.  Every time two "helmet" teams (like OU and tOSU) play an OOC game against each other, one of them WILL lose.  
I posted this upthread, but consider OU/tOSU's two-game series and the effect it had on OU and tOSU's CFP chances:
  • In 2016 the OU win got tOSU into the CFP but it also cost OU a CFP slot so that is a wash.  
  • In 2017 the OU loss cost tOSU a CFP slot and had no impact on OU's CFP slot so that is -1.  
In the two years of this great OOC match-up the two teams lost a combined one CFP appearance by playing each other (as opposed to playing some crap opponent).  Bottom line, OU would have been no worse off and tOSU would have been better off to play FCS teams the past two years.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #214 on: January 11, 2018, 04:25:04 PM »
Exactly. An OOC win over a middling-to-low P5 doesn't help you a great deal. But you probably have an 85% win probability in that game. So if nothing else, the game doesn't hurt you. 

An OOC loss to ANYONE hurts you. So why schedule a marquee OOC game where your win probability probably hovers somewhere a lot closer to 50%? 

In conference, just about any week can be a loss. You're gambling terribly if you schedule games with higher likelihood of loss OOC.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #215 on: January 11, 2018, 04:49:07 PM »
I think this chart is Horsesh!t.

We have a 4 team playoff now. It claims an undefeated G5 team has a 25% chance of making the playoff. No. No they do not, we had an undefeated G5 champion and they were not even sniffed at.

It lists a 2 loss P5 champ behind a an undefeated G5 team. This would also be patently false, we had two, 2 loss P5 champs both ranked ahead of the undefeated G5 team.

Really, I think we only need a minor tweak to the 4 team model and move on from there. And that tweak would be to prioritize wins instead of losses. That gives the conference champion an equal footing for playing that extra end of season difficult game against non-conference champion participants.  
I don't completely disagree with you and I also noticed that they had undefeated G5 at 25% compared to only 17% for 2-loss P5 Champion but I do want to point out a couple of things:
  • I think that in the four years of the CFP we have had an unusual run of pretty good P5 Champions.  The eight slots filled so far have been filled by six 1-loss or undefeated P5 Champions and two 1-loss non-Champions.  Over time I think we'll see more years where there are less than four 1-loss or undefeated P5 teams.  
  • UCF had an unusually weak SoS even for an undefeated G5 team.  Typically those teams at least play a decent P5 team OOC.  UCG actually scheduled GaTech but the game was cancelled due to the hurricane and, in any case, GaTech wasn't very good this year.  They played Maryland and that might have been worth something if the Terrapins hadn't suffered a legion of injuries but crap happens.  I do think that it is possible for an undefeated G5 team to get in, but they are obviously going to have to challenge themselves OOC more than that.  

rolltidefan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #216 on: January 11, 2018, 04:55:48 PM »
Ahh, for some reason I had thought Stanford was the PAC champ, but didn't realize they were 11-1 without getting into the CCG due to the H2H against Oregon. My mistake.
it's still a valid point, though. as much as i enjoy bama winning it that year and can argue bama being in over ok st, i can still see and agree its a shame a p5 champ is left out under that scenario. hell, i'd argue lsu suffered more for that than ok st. wasn't fair to either of them, really.

MaximumSam

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #217 on: January 11, 2018, 04:56:07 PM »
 Really?  What were UCF's best wins (pre-bowl because we are talking about at the time of selection)?  Memphis (twice, home and neutral)?  
  
Here is the same list for Bama:
  • #8 Auburn, lost on the road
  • #17 MissSt, won on the road
  • #19 LSU, won at home
  • #28 Florida State, won at a neutral site

So Bama was 3-1 in four games against teams better than any team that UCF played and Ohio State was 4-2 in six games against such teams.  It is NOT CLOSE.  A G5 team needs to play a ridiculous OOC to get close to even but it also isn't impossible.  It was pointed out upthread that last year Houston beat P5 Champion Oklahoma and also played Louisville.  That is the kind of schedule that could make it.  If UCF had replaced Austin Peay and Maryland with quality OOC opponents then I think they would have had an argument.  
Truly.  By final S&P+ rankings , you find:
15. South Florida
19. LSU
20. Memphis
23. Fresno State
28. Miss. St
That's three wins a piece among a group of teams that are clustered pretty well together.  I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and say that Alabama's wins were somehow head and shoulders above UCF's wins.  They weren't.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #218 on: January 11, 2018, 06:00:30 PM »
Oh oh, let me try this one!  Look at your S+P whatever rankings and list the next 8 toughest opponents for Bama and UCF....
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #219 on: January 11, 2018, 06:02:00 PM »
What I don’t get is all this uproar over UCF when this has happened before to better Other5 teams.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

TyphonInc

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #220 on: January 11, 2018, 06:45:37 PM »
I think you are right, all else being equal, if Ohio State had defeated some crap opponent in week two instead of challenging themselves and coming up short against B12 Champion (to be) and Playoff team (to be) Oklahoma, then Ohio State would have gotten in over Bama as a 12-1 B1G Champion with a weak OOC.  I do NOT like that message being sent by the committee.  
So... your saying if OSU scheduled say ... Mercer for example ... they would not have been placed in the playoff over a 2 loss conference champ?
Gee ... I wonder ... is there any data out there contrary to that exact thing happening? /s

TyphonInc

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #221 on: January 11, 2018, 06:56:54 PM »
What I don’t get is all this uproar over UCF when this has happened before to better Other5 teams.  
Could be Alabama fatigue?
Could be that there are several issues here, and one of the solutions is to either include G5 in the playoff, or move them to there own division?
Could be Conference champion homers trying to make a point?

MaximumSam

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #222 on: January 11, 2018, 07:16:27 PM »
Oh oh, let me try this one!  Look at your S+P whatever rankings and list the next 8 toughest opponents for Bama and UCF....
Should we pick teams based on who played more average teams?

MaximumSam

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #223 on: January 11, 2018, 07:17:11 PM »
What I don’t get is all this uproar over UCF when this has happened before to better Other5 teams.  
Such as?

 

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