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Topic: Big Game Jim

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medinabuckeye1

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Big Game Jim
« on: November 28, 2022, 10:36:36 AM »
Prior to last year's tOSU/M game the big discussion around Harbaugh was his losing the rivalry/big games.  Now all of a sudden, Harbuagh is Big Game Jim.  

You guys know I'm a data/numbers guy.  I watched the College Football Nerds podcast which was filmed Saturday night and a bunch of Michigan fans were chiming in to tell the Nerds what idiots they had been for picking Ohio State and basically that Michigan was obviously better.  That just annoys me because there were very good reasons to pick Ohio State and for that matter, nearly all of the Michigan fans I know thought that Ohio State would win.  

Here are Michigan's results this year sorted by opponent Sagrin ranking (current):

There is no way you would predict Michigan's big wins over PSU or tOSU based on the rest of their results.  Against teams ranked 22-40 they have two one-score wins and a two-score win.  Based on that you'd expect that when Michigan's opposition upgraded from 22-40 to 2-6, the Wolverines would be in trouble or, AT BEST, that they might be able to eek out a win.  

Another way to look at it is this:
Michigan beat PSU by 22 and tOSU by 24.  Those teams are ranked #6 and #2 by Sagrin.  The only teams that Michigan beat by more points are:

  • #60 Nebraska
  • #115 Rutgers
  • #130 CoState
  • #132 UCONN
  • #154 Hawaii.  

You can argue with Sagrin's rankings (he still has tOSU #2 ahead of M #3 for example) but the arguments are around the margins.  Maybe Ohio State and Penn State aren't really the second and sixth best teams respectively but they are clearly VASTLY superior to the aforementioned UNL, RU, CoSt, UCONN, and Hawaii.  They are also substantially better than Illinois, Iowa, Maryland, and Michigan State each of whom played as close or closer with the Wolverines than the Lions or Buckeyes did.  

This isn't a one-game thing, the Wolverines substantially overperformed against PSU as well as tOSU but it isn't even just a one-season thing.  Here are Michigan's results from last year:

So I guess there is an upper cap to it.  They weren't able to just jump up their level of play enough to blow out (or even beat) Georgia but other than that the pattern is somewhat similar.  Michigan had three REALLY good league games:
  • beat #3 tOSU at home by two scores.  
  • beat #12 UW on the road by three scores.  
  • beat #25 Iowa in Indy by infinity.  
This same 2021 Michigan team, however, struggled MIGHTILY with some opponents that were not as good as tOSU/UW and worse or only marginally better than Iowa:
  • beat #18 PSU by one score.  
  • lost to #19 MSU by one score (remember this is an MSU team that tOSU beat by infinity).  
  • beat #48 Nebraska by one score (in their defense nearly everyone only beat Nebraska by one score but there was one exception, tOSU beat them by two scores).  
  • beat #88 Rutgers by one score.  

Here is a more common profile, tOSU in 2022:

The Buckeyes' worst game is against the best team they played.  Then they have a couple two-score wins over teams ranked #6 and #18.  Then the blowouts start.  There are still outliers (everybody has outliers).  Ohio State's outliers are "only" beating Maryland by 13 and "only" beating Northwestern by 14 but those are things that happen.  In general the margins get better for tOSU as the opponents get worse.  


All of this is NOT a knock on Michigan/Harbaugh.  Quite the opposite.  It is to his/their credit that they've been able to perform so well in their biggest games these past two years.  Heck, if John Cooper could have learned that trick he'd have retired from Ohio State as a legend with multiple rings instead of getting fired as the ringless guy who couldn't beat Michigan.  

FearlessF

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Re: Big Game Jim
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2022, 12:03:56 PM »
I'll call him Big Game Jimmy if the wins the next 3
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

LittlePig

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Re: Big Game Jim
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2022, 02:20:07 PM »
It's weird to explain some time. Why you think one team is better.

As an Iowa fan I watched Iowa lose to Mich by 13 and Iowa lose to OSU by 44 points,  yet I came away with the impression that Michigan was the better team after both games.  Michigan just totally dominated Iowa and the outcome of the game was really never in doubt, even though the final score was reasonably close.  I just felt like if they played again, Mich would dominate again.  On the other hand,  I felt if Iowa and OSU played again,  the number of turnovers would be very different, so the outcome of the game would be very different. 

Still I waited till both Mich and OSU played PSU, and after that I was convinced Mich was the better team.  I moved Mich to #1 in my power rankings and l left them there the rest of the season.  For once I was right.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Big Game Jim
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2022, 02:35:04 PM »
It's weird to explain some time. Why you think one team is better.

As an Iowa fan I watched Iowa lose to Mich by 13 and Iowa lose to OSU by 44 points,  yet I came away with the impression that Michigan was the better team after both games.  Michigan just totally dominated Iowa and the outcome of the game was really never in doubt, even though the final score was reasonably close.  I just felt like if they played again, Mich would dominate again.  On the other hand,  I felt if Iowa and OSU played again,  the number of turnovers would be very different, so the outcome of the game would be very different. 

Still I waited till both Mich and OSU played PSU, and after that I was convinced Mich was the better team.  I moved Mich to #1 in my power rankings and l left them there the rest of the season.  For once I was right.
For me when I try to evaluate the level of "domination" or what the CFP Committee frequently refers to as "Game Control" I always try to think of it in terms of time rather than final score.  Specifically, the question I ask myself is "how far back in the game would I have to rewind to get to a point where it was reasonable to think that the defeated team had a chance"?  

The specific example I always use is two games I attended in Ohio Stadium, one against your team and one against PSU:
  • In a tOSU/Iowa game in about the mid-90's, tOSU jumped all over Iowa from the opening kickoff and led 56-0 right around halftime.  Then tOSU's backups, third-stringers, waterboys, cheerleaders, and mascots came in and got outscored 35-0 such that it ended up as a 21 point, 56-35 win.  
  • In a tOSU/PSU game about 10 years later the Buckeyes and Nittany Lions played a very hard-fought and fairly evenly-matched defensive struggle.  Late in the 4th quarter Ohio State was up by eight, 14-6.  The difference in the game was solely goal-line offense/defense.  Each team had two scoring drives but tOSU had punched them in for TD's and held PSU to FG's.  Then, as time was getting short Paterno had to let his QB sling it and PSU ended up throwing pick-6's literally on back-to-back plays which led to a 22 point tOSU win, 28-6.  

By final score that Iowa game was closer, 21 vs 22 points but the reality of the games was that the PSU game was a close game and the Iowa game wasn't.  Applying my time test, you'd have to rewind the tOSU/Iowa game to roughly the opening kick to feel like Iowa had a shot but the PSU game you'd only have to rewind to when PSU had the ball within one score late in the fourth.  

Applying that to Iowa's games against tOSU and M this year I get this:
  • Against Michigan:  Iowa had a chance until Michigan scored half-way through the third quarter to make it 20-0.  
  • Against Ohio State:  Iowa had a chance until tOSU scored half-way through the third quarter to make it 33-10.  
Ohio State's superior margin didn't develop until last ~20 minutes when the Buckeyes outscored the Hawkeyes 21-0.  By comparison the Hawkeyes outscored the Wolverines 14-7 in the last ~20 minutes of that game.  


MrNubbz

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Re: Big Game Jim
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2022, 03:40:44 PM »
 Heck, if John Cooper could have learned that trick he'd have retired from Ohio State as a legend with multiple rings instead of getting fired as the ringless guy who couldn't beat Michigan. 
JC should have been shyt canned after 4 straight losses to UM - in his 1st 4 yrs,I would have done it at 3 straight
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

 

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