header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18

 (Read 31937 times)

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72090
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #518 on: October 24, 2018, 12:57:20 PM »
The problem I see with programs like Purdue and say Kentucky (this year) is they can start out doing very well (or in Purdue's case, not, but having a great upset win) and then fade or look mediocre the rest of the time.

My thinking is that UK fades on the back half, maybe I'm wrong, and ends up something close to 7-5 (6-1 now) and Purdue ends up 6-6 (which is not a great leap).  UK had their win at Florida of course, not in the same universe as OSU, but they look to be weakening.  Dings and soreness and flat out injuries etc.

I can recall Arkansas doing this a while back, like a few seasons in a row, getting everyone all excited at 6-0 and they end up 8-4.

Programs like OSU and Bama and now Clemson have that depth thing so losing players is not as much of a drop off as for a Purdue.

Bama - this year - is playing at a different level in my view, they have combined the usual Bama teams with a very potent quick strike offense.  They may get beat of course, but I don't see it.  We'll find out more next weekend.

I read some caller on Feinstein suggested LSU target Tu'a's knee.  That is revolting for anyone to have said.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37776
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #519 on: October 24, 2018, 12:57:30 PM »
So, how do folks think Purdue ends the season?

Or they could continue to smoke people and beat everyone say but Wisky and finish a pretty decent 8-4 and be a tough bowl opponent.


I'd like to see this....but I don't know for sure.
The two games I've watched Purdue, Lincoln in person and the tOSU game, they look good enough for 8-4
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37776
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #520 on: October 24, 2018, 12:58:51 PM »
I read some caller on Feinstein suggested LSU target Tu'a's knee.  That is revolting for anyone to have said.
it's the SEC and their fans
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7872
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #521 on: October 24, 2018, 01:22:15 PM »
I think that minimizes the most important and most inarguable aspect of any game. Who won and who lost.  We can argue over should have and could have won. We can argue over why the margin of victory was big or small but who won and lost is in stone and it’s the entire reason these games are played.
So, this question cuts to the center of what we want from our rankings. 
OAM and a lot of others say, we want rankings that say, this is who we think wins between those two teams. So in theory, on a neutral field, a team on average wins against the team a spot below it, loses to the team a spot above it. This would be a forward looking ranking. We might use data from the past, but we are not rewarding a team for accomplishments.
And it turns out, relying on wins is not a good way to build a forward looking ranking. They're too blocky of a piece of data. Looking at wins, a 1-point win and 40 point win have more in common than a 1-point loss and a 1-point win. Those last two are a stark difference, even though they're likely functionally the same game, give or take a play. So we can't build a great forward looking ranking by only using what amounts to a standing approach looking backwards.
That being said, I don't really see any need for the biggest rankings to be forward looking. I much prefer them to be backwards looking. I like rankings as a comparison of resumes and accomplishments. But that means I have to do away with the idea the No. 1 team should usually beat 2 or 3. It means I have to accept the No. 4 team might really be better than No. 1. 
In the end, I think there's room for any of these. I love some predictive ones. I don't mind the resume ones. To be honest, I'm mostly not bent out of shape by the big ones because they're not really held to any standard. I'm sure some use the old poll movement logic, and nothing says they can't. Some try to build their own resumes each week. Some use a bunch of advanced stats and then slightly adjust. And it all kind of comes out in the wash. 

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25455
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #522 on: October 24, 2018, 02:00:02 PM »
Wisconsin will lose at Purdue.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7872
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #523 on: October 24, 2018, 02:05:01 PM »
Wisconsin will lose at Purdue.
Damn sure feels that way. 

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37776
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #524 on: October 24, 2018, 02:09:06 PM »
Purdue's offense is a load
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17199
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #525 on: October 24, 2018, 02:16:12 PM »
Programs like OSU and Bama and now Clemson have that depth thing so losing players is not as much of a drop off as for a Purdue.
tOSU had that depth thing last year - in Aces Tyquan Lewis,Sam Hubbard,Jalyn Holmes - 2nd,3rd,4th rds and Trace Sprinkle - signed as a FE off of the D-Line.Billy Price (1st rd),Jamarco Jones (4th I think) and somebody else left I'd have to look up.Many thought last season Urban would go with Dwayne or Joe under center after JT's play in the Clemson & Oklahoma games.Now with injury & performance issues that depth is thin
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72090
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #526 on: October 24, 2018, 02:58:41 PM »
It will be fascinating to watch how Purdue finishes out the season.  If they finish well, there will be some "what ifs" regarding their close losses early.

mcwterps1

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3152
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #527 on: October 24, 2018, 03:47:28 PM »
For Purdue, what a difference a quarterback makes.


FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37776
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #528 on: October 24, 2018, 03:53:44 PM »
tOSU had that depth thing last year - in Aces Tyquan Lewis,Sam Hubbard,Jalyn Holmes - 2nd,3rd,4th rds and Trace Sprinkle - signed as a FE off of the D-Line.Billy Price (1st rd),Jamarco Jones (4th I think) and somebody else left I'd have to look up.Many thought last season Urban would go with Dwayne or Joe under center after JT's play in the Clemson & Oklahoma games.Now with injury & performance issues that depth is thin
tOSU had good depth the previous 4 years and has it this year and will have it the next 4 years if Urby stays
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #529 on: October 24, 2018, 06:28:22 PM »
More than ever, I'm questioning that last part - whether Urby stays.

From the preseason scandal/suspension, to the head ache when he fell to the ground on the sideline versus Indiana, to the (supposedly untrue) rumors about Day talking with the AD about becoming "HC in waiting," to how ill Meyer looked versus Purdue, to the (supposedly untrue) rumors building this week about tension between Meyer, Gene Smith and his staff (...) there are just so many bad heuristics.

I won't question his resolve to stay and fight, but at this moment, it just seems like if he stays, he may be doing it primarily to spite the haters. Because all else being equal, it seems like being a CFB HC is thorough torture to Meyer right now.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #530 on: October 24, 2018, 07:00:13 PM »
That's why I predicted he wouldn't serve the full 7 years of his contract.  This 'stuff' seems to happen with him.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: All Hail the Supreme Leader SOC 10/20/18
« Reply #531 on: October 24, 2018, 07:10:10 PM »
So, this question cuts to the center of what we want from our rankings.
OAM and a lot of others say, we want rankings that say, this is who we think wins between those two teams. So in theory, on a neutral field, a team on average wins against the team a spot below it, loses to the team a spot above it. This would be a forward looking ranking. We might use data from the past, but we are not rewarding a team for accomplishments.
And it turns out, relying on wins is not a good way to build a forward looking ranking. They're too blocky of a piece of data. Looking at wins, a 1-point win and 40 point win have more in common than a 1-point loss and a 1-point win. Those last two are a stark difference, even though they're likely functionally the same game, give or take a play. So we can't build a great forward looking ranking by only using what amounts to a standing approach looking backwards.
That being said, I don't really see any need for the biggest rankings to be forward looking. I much prefer them to be backwards looking. I like rankings as a comparison of resumes and accomplishments. But that means I have to do away with the idea the No. 1 team should usually beat 2 or 3. It means I have to accept the No. 4 team might really be better than No. 1.
In the end, I think there's room for any of these. I love some predictive ones. I don't mind the resume ones. To be honest, I'm mostly not bent out of shape by the big ones because they're not really held to any standard. I'm sure some use the old poll movement logic, and nothing says they can't. Some try to build their own resumes each week. Some use a bunch of advanced stats and then slightly adjust. And it all kind of comes out in the wash.
Great post.
I have a problem knowingly ranking a team above another team I'm pretty sure would spank it.  So  no, I don't feel bad when a UCF can't crack the top 5.  There are reasons they have weight classes in boxing.  



As with a coach, I'd rather the voters make aggressive mistakes, not lazily moving everyone up who didn't happen to lose.  If someone thinks Purdue would beat all but 7 teams, then rank them 8th.  But at the same time, a loss in September = a loss in November.  If they're going to be damning, then when they occur shouldn't matter much at all.  Purdue's resume isn't great, but you can still think highly of a team like that.



For me, I've labeled this the "USC conundrum" in my mind.  It would be the Alabama conundrum, but Bama actually wins nearly all its games.  For a long while now, USC has pulled in the top talent west of the Rockies (if not Tuscaloosa) and lost a handful of games each year.  They're nearly always more talented than who they play, but don't wind up with an elite record.
So what do you do?  The more talented team doesn't win ?enough? of the time...so what do you do about that?  Purdue isn't better than tOSU, but they spanked the Buckeyes.  It happened.  



Then there's trap games, letdown games, injuries, etc that are part of the natural order of things.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.