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Topic: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center

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MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #266 on: March 07, 2025, 03:29:44 PM »
Nope. Same throughout the country.

That strikes me as half-insane at best, and borderline criminal at worst.  


SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #267 on: March 07, 2025, 04:13:56 PM »
Being a federal judge is an incredible honor. Many people are fine with the pay, regardless of the city they live in, to have lifetime tenure in probably the most exalted position in the legal field. It also becomes a problem when the feds start paying people more to live in more expensive places. It's putting the thumb on the scale of the more expensive place. It's different than the military because there people are told where to go, whereas attorneys/judges (etc.) volunteer for where they live.

At my old firm they joked about the guy on the federal bench who used to be a partner there. They said that they thought he probably just liked looking at himself in the mirror with his robes on. Kind of funny, but probably also true. It's no small thing to be a federal judge.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #268 on: March 07, 2025, 04:50:51 PM »
Being a federal judge is an incredible honor. Many people are fine with the pay, regardless of the city they live in, to have lifetime tenure in probably the most exalted position in the legal field. It also becomes a problem when the feds start paying people more to live in more expensive places. It's putting the thumb on the scale of the more expensive place. It's different than the military because there people are told where to go, whereas attorneys/judges (etc.) volunteer for where they live.

At my old firm they joked about the guy on the federal bench who used to be a partner there. They said that they thought he probably just liked looking at himself in the mirror with his robes on. Kind of funny, but probably also true. It's no small thing to be a federal judge.
Ok, so I looked it up:
  • $246,300 for Federal District Court Judges
  • $257,900 for Federal Appeals Court Judges
I don't disagree that it is an honor but I am always leery of creating a situation where only the independently wealthy can afford to serve.  This isn't that . . at least in most of the Country.  

I live outside of Cleveland, Ohio.  You could live really well here on a Quarter-Million per year.  I imagine that is a really good wage where @FearlessF lives as well and in most (geographically) of the country.  However, if you are a Federal Judge in NYC, San Francisco, or some other very high cost area, that is not a lot of money at all.  I'm guessing that wouldn't get you into a house in @SFBadger96 's neighborhood or for that matter into a house anywhere in the Bay Area in a decent school district.  


I'm pretty sure that the FBI and some other federal agencies DO have location adjustments such that the head of the FBI Field Office in Manhattan makes enough to actually be able to live there and considerably more than the heads of the FBI Field Offices in Cleveland and Sioux City.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #269 on: March 07, 2025, 05:31:10 PM »
On the subject of Pension Plans where it is "too late" to use @847badgerfan 's words:

The article that he linked suggested that funding of <40% is basically destined to insolvency.  That seems about right to me.  

Using Ohio as the example simply because it is the one I am most familiar with, Ohio has multiple state-wide pension plans:

  • STRS, State Teachers Retirement System is for certified employees of Ohio's Schools.  
  • SERS, School Employees Retirement System is for non-certified employees of Ohio's Schools.  This includes relatively low-pay janitorial staff and maintenance but also some higher paid non-education employees like School Treasurers, Business Managers, Legal Counsel, etc.  
  • OPF, Ohio Police and Fire is for Police and FT firemen*.  
  • OHPRS, Ohio Highway Patrol Retirement System for members of Ohio's Highway Patrol (this is by far the smallest)
  • OPERS, Ohio Public Employees Retirement System, this is the catch-all.  Membership is literally statutorily defined as any public employee in Ohio who is not covered by one of the other four nor specifically exempted is required to be in OPERS.  
OPERS is around 70-80% funded depending on who you ask.  If ERISA suddenly applied to OPERS with a reasonable phase-in (such as what I outlined) it wouldn't be catastrophic.  Current contributions are:
  • 14% employer
  • 10% employee
  • 24% total
According to Moody's, the "tread water contribution" would be a little under 30%.  So if OPERS had to be fully funded in 36 years, they could probably raise the contributions by 3% each (employee and employer) and tweak the benefits a little and get there.  That would increase payroll costs for all of Ohio's Cities, Counties, Townships, Park Districts, Transit Authorities, Housing Authorities, etc by about 3%.  As per above, that is an increase that we'd feel but it wouldn't be completely catastrophic.  

Where you run into trouble is in a systems like (from @847badgerfan 's link):
  • 18.8% funded, Chicago Fire
  • 20.7% Chicago Municipal
  • 21.7% Kentucky State Employees
  • 25.5% Chicago Police
  • 30.1% New Jersey State Employees
  • 32% Arizona Elected Officials
  • 32.9% New Jersey State Police, Fire
  • 36.4% Indiana Teachers (pre-1996)
  • 39.3% New Jersey Teachers
  • 39.9% Chicago Laborers
I think the problem here is that in order to solve the problem you would have to enact humongous increases in contributions, not 3% like my estimate for OPERS above but probably on order of magnitude larger.  At that point you are likely to create a downward spiral.  Allow me to explain:

In my City one of the functions that public employees handle is trash collection.  The City owns the Trash trucks and the guys who drive the trucks and sling the trash are Municipal Employees and thus covered by OPERS.  We are continually asked about privatizing.  Ideologically we have some on the right who basically always think we should privatize and some on the left who basically think we should never privatize.  I'm a pragmatist in the middle.  At the present time I'm opposed to privatizing and I've more-or-less led the opposition to several privatization efforts because our trash rates are LOWER than several surrounding Cities that have private trash haulers.  I'm opposed to privatization but my opposition is conditioned on our public employees being able to do the job cheaper or at least for a rate competitive with private haulers.  If the City contribution to OPERS increased  to 17% instead of 14% it would only minimally impact that calculation.  However, if the City contribution to OPERS suddenly increased to 44% then it would instantly become MUCH cheaper to contract out Trash Hauling.  For that matter, a whole lot of what my City does would be cheaper to contract out if OPERS contributions went up by 30%.  

That downward spiral is because if your 30% increase pushes half of your workforce out of the system then you need EVEN HIGHER contributions from the remaining workers to balance the books.  

I obviously haven't gone to the effort to calculate things exactly but my assumption is that for plans in the 40-60% funding range, this would be difficult but probably attainable so long as you had a sufficiently long phase-in period.  That is why I suggested 36 years above.  For plans above 60% funding, they'd be fine, just normal-ish increases.  For plans below 40% funding, they realistically couldn't fix the problem with contribution increases.  They would have to be bailed out by the State/City/whatever or liquidated.  


*If you want to know, I'll explain it.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #270 on: March 07, 2025, 05:31:24 PM »
Being a federal judge is an incredible honor. Many people are fine with the pay, regardless of the city they live in, to have lifetime tenure in probably the most exalted position in the legal field. It also becomes a problem when the feds start paying people more to live in more expensive places. It's putting the thumb on the scale of the more expensive place. It's different than the military because there people are told where to go, whereas attorneys/judges (etc.) volunteer for where they live.

At my old firm they joked about the guy on the federal bench who used to be a partner there. They said that they thought he probably just liked looking at himself in the mirror with his robes on. Kind of funny, but probably also true. It's no small thing to be a federal judge.

That's understandable, and fine.  What I mean is, it's silly to to expect someone to live in an area where real estate is astronomical along with other costs of living, and say we'll pay you no more than what the guy in Podunk, MS makes.  I don't see how it puts any thumbs on the scale to say we want Judge A to have roughly the same standard of living and purchasing power as Judge B, despite the fact Judge A lives in an extraordinarily expensive locale.  

If anything, it seems like it might more easily open up Judge A to corruption.  I mean, dude's got private school for his kids to pay for, and the government sure doesn't make it affordable.  

I suppose it could instead mean we just "overpay" Judge B, but then, I'm not really down with that either.  Everything in the private sector is theoretically based on standard-of-living, and that's what makes sense to me.  If you do Job X, you should be able to afford Lifestyle Y.  It's not hard to calculate, and it makes sense to me, even for federal judges.  

But I don't know a lot about federal judges.  

FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #271 on: March 07, 2025, 05:44:43 PM »
if ya can't afford a decent place on $250K a year, move out to the burbs and commute

I live in a town of 300, much cheaper than Sewer City at 75,000 people
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SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #272 on: March 07, 2025, 05:46:19 PM »
You could make the same argument about congresspeople. Should my congressperson make more than one from Mississippi? It costs a lot more to live here. My congressperson actually isn't independently wealthy. He lives a very moderate lifestyle. The person he replaced was independently wealthy, which is more of the norm.

As it is for a lot of federal judges, at least in this area.

On the one hand, I want to agree with you. Once upon a time I wanted to be a judge. Then I hit the point when it became economically irrational for me to try for that. I would have to become much more wealthy than I am currently on track for to want to switch now, given how long I hope to have left before I retire.

SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #273 on: March 07, 2025, 05:47:45 PM »
if ya can't afford a decent place on $250K a year, move out to the burbs and commute

I live in a town of 300, much cheaper than Sewer City at 75,000 people
My best friend constantly reminds me that I could sell my home here and move to the suburbs of Milwaukee and never have to work again. It's true. But SFIrish ain't moving to Milwaukee (or anywhere else in Wisconsin or near that lattitude).

FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #274 on: March 07, 2025, 06:32:21 PM »
we all have our priorities
I'd like to live in the bay area, not the city, but the expense is too much
NYC or the middle of San Fran, I'd rather stay here, even if the cost were the same
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MarqHusker

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #275 on: March 07, 2025, 09:09:12 PM »
Im worried were going to f'ix ' the pension shortfalls in a similar fashion as we saw when the government waived away the rights of creditors with certain bailouts of certain companies during financial crisis. 

What....these bonds ..  ..they don't mean anything

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #276 on: March 08, 2025, 08:31:58 AM »
My step son lives in SF near the baseball park.  His rent is not that bad.  He pays a lot in CA income taxes because he earns a lot.  He likes it, it's good for some younnger folks I think.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #277 on: March 08, 2025, 10:00:07 AM »
I assume many some judges take a big pay cut from being very successful lawyers first.  Is that accurate?  This came up in a discussion in my classroom the other day.  I'm assuming the top 1-5% (or more?) lawyers make $500K+, no?
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847badgerfan

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #278 on: March 08, 2025, 10:01:16 AM »
Depends on what type of law.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #279 on: March 08, 2025, 10:03:21 AM »
Depends on what type of law.
Of course...

How about generic lawyer X (I know, that doesn't exist) makes partner at a firm (so it took awhile to get in that spot).......he's taking a pay cut if he "advances" to being a judge, yes?

And if it's a woman, it can never be a pay cut, because y = .7x  :57:
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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