2023 NFL Draft Thread

[OrangeAfroMan]

mostly because of coaching

not because of the player

So ole Vince Dooley would have had a little 180 lb RB get all those carries?  Or do you mean his best play was Hershel to the right, then Hershel left, then Hershel up the middle?  If so, were other coaches stupid, wasting time with plays that weren't in their 3 best?  I'm confused.
Were Jimmy Johnson and OC Norv Turner stupid?  Insisting on giving the ball to their slow, pedestrian RB all those times?  Were they wrong? 
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Also, I'd like to point out another inconsistency when it comes to "best player" talk:  if we were talking QBs, some of you would harp on how many TDs or even more so - how many Super Bowl rings the player has.  Not so with RBs, even from that era.  Why is that?? 
If it's not Barry's fault the Lions didn't win it all, then why is it any particular QB's fault?  That's silly.

[Cincydawg]

mostly because of coaching

not because of the player

I think he means the overall scheme by said coach led to HW getting a lot of carries.  UGA was a run oriented offense at the time no matter who was running back.  Now, other backs in that era didn't get as many carries of course, some didn't stay healthy, some had steady backups, some weren't on very good teams, so they would get behind and need to throw more.  And many could not have carried the load of 35 attempts per game plus some receiving.

Had Walker played on a pass oriented team, he would not have gotten so many carries.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Also, I'd like to point out another inconsistency when it comes to "best player" talk:  if we were talking QBs, some of you would harp on how many TDs or even more so - how many Super Bowl rings the player has.  Not so with RBs, even from that era.  Why is that?? 
If it's not Barry's fault the Lions didn't win it all, then why is it any particular QB's fault?  That's silly.

This is one of those things that always gets me. Marino gets discounted because he never got a ring. 

Please. Getting a ring is dependent on SO many things in football that are outside the QBs control. 

Jim McMahon has a ring because he played with possibly the greatest RB in history and had a terrifying defense that did all the work. Hell, Peyton Manning is an all-time great, but his arm was half falling off when he got his second ring, and although he was still as sharp mentally as in his physical prime, there's NO chance he would have even gotten near the Super Bowl w/o the defense that the Broncos had that year. 

Matthew Stafford has a ring. Why? Because he left Detroit for a team that literally mortgaged the future to build a Super Bowl worthy roster around him, and it worked. 

Marino is one of the all-time greats at the position. But sportswriters create a special box to put him in, "the best QB who never won a Super Bowl."

In football, individual success can exist on a team that sucks, and teams can be successful despite rather pedestrian play from even an important position like QB. 

[Cincydawg]

I think M. Jordan should get credit for the rings in addition to his play, duh.  But I agree, a great player could have zero rings, and a decent player might have 2.

Stetson Bennett IV for example...

[FearlessF]

So ole Vince Dooley would have had a little 180 lb RB get all those carries?  Or do you mean his best play was Hershel to the right, then Hershel left, then Hershel up the middle?  If so, were other coaches stupid, wasting time with plays that weren't in their 3 best?  I'm confused.

no need to be cornfused

part of it is giving the 2nd string back some of those carries
either to keep the #1 guy fresh or healthy or to develop depth
especially when the game is in hand, maybe Vince wasn't in many blowouts
UNL and OU didn't throw many passes, but they didn't run their top RB into the ground.
It's the coach that decides how many attempts a guy gets.
Rozier, Sims, and Sanders might have been the best play and really wanted those carries, but coaches decided otherwise
I'd guess Sanders would have loved to start ahead of Thurman the previous season, but.......... coach

[FearlessF]

Had Walker played on a pass oriented team, he would not have gotten so many carries.

and this, obviously

[FearlessF]

If it's not Barry's fault the Lions didn't win it all, then why is it any particular QB's fault?  That's silly.

I agree it's silly.

Dan Marino
Fran Tarkenton

[betarhoalphadelta]

I think M. Jordan should get credit for the rings in addition to his play, duh.  But I agree, a great player could have zero rings, and a decent player might have 2.

Stetson Bennett IV for example...

Basketball is a bit of a different sport in this respect, with only 5 players on the court per team at one time. One dominant player can do a lot more individually than you see in football. 

That said, as amazing as Jordan was, he can't play 1-on-5, even if some nights it seemed like that's what he was doing. You have to have a supporting cast to do what those teams did. And the Bulls did make the playoffs during the first year of his first retirement. It's not like the rest of the roster were scrubs. 

[Cincydawg]

Absolutely.  This is why overall I tend to dismiss "lists" of the "ten greatest" in order.  Let them all be great, celebrate their greatness without having to try and rank Babe Ruth over Ty Cobb or whatever.  I view MJ as "The Greatest" myself, he's kind of an exception for me (not that it matters).  I'd probably say Jack N. was the greatest, but I don't like losing sight of the other greats in golf.  Pinning the label on one guy tends to obscure what others accomplished.

[betarhoalphadelta]

I think he means the overall scheme by said coach led to HW getting a lot of carries.  UGA was a run oriented offense at the time no matter who was running back.  Now, other backs in that era didn't get as many carries of course, some didn't stay healthy, some had steady backups, some weren't on very good teams, so they would get behind and need to throw more.  And many could not have carried the load of 35 attempts per game plus some receiving.

Had Walker played on a pass oriented team, he would not have gotten so many carries.

I think this is also important. Obviously @OrangeAfroMan brought up Jonathan Taylor. 

But it's not like Wisconsin recruited Taylor and said "OMG he's so freakin' good let's become a run-first team!" No, they already had a scheme, and an identity, and in recruiting attracted top-end RB talent. Taylor just happened to be so good, and so durable, and didn't fumble, so you just force-fed him the ball over and over. 

I don't know much about the UGA teams of that era. But I would suspect it's the same thing. Run-dominant philosophy before Herschel arrives, and then you just happen upon an otherworldly talent who also managed to stay really healthy over three years, and so you just gave him the ball over and over. 

IMHO with Wisconsin, the scheme came first, and then they got really lucky with a player who had the exact mix of talent and skills that you didn't even want to give the backup any carries. It was easy coaching, "just give it to JT!" But it wasn't coaching in the sense that they changed their offense to revolve around the run game--they already had that. 

That said, it's still an insane volume for Walker, and like Emmitt, I tip my hat to him actually withstanding it. 

[Cincydawg]

UGA circa 1980 under Dooley was a run oriented offense for sure.  I was before and after HW.  UGA didn't get great QBs and WRs very often, Goff was pretty good but he was a running QB.  Buck Belue was pretty good, but he had HW.  His successor in 1982 was not good at all, he was a gamer.  Their good teams, when they had one, were based on gutty defense and running the ball.  Casual fans today are shocked to watch them and realize they pass the ball now.

Walker was the third string back in 1980 in the first game.  He didn't look like much in practice I'm told.  Dooley called him a "big stiff fullback".

The state population has doubled since 1980 and a LOT of money has gone into HS football.  It's THE sport to play if you're an athlete.  And UGA now is somewhat akin to Ohio State in dominating a pretty large state with very good HS football, though UGA has more neighbors recruiting hard in the state.

[FearlessF]

Walker was the third string back in 1980 in the first game.  He didn't look like much in practice I'm told.  Dooley called him a "big stiff fullback".

coaching.........


if for whatever reason, Vince wouldn't have realized Walker was a beast, instead of a big stiff, Herschel never gets all those carries
so, for me, the eye test means more than a stat page
but then, greatness is in the eye of the beholder and is seriously objective

[OrangeAfroMan]

I think he means the overall scheme by said coach led to HW getting a lot of carries.  UGA was a run oriented offense at the time no matter who was running back.  Now, other backs in that era didn't get as many carries of course, some didn't stay healthy, some had steady backups, some weren't on very good teams, so they would get behind and need to throw more.  And many could not have carried the load of 35 attempts per game plus some receiving.

Had Walker played on a pass oriented team, he would not have gotten so many carries.

Many teams ran the ball as often as UGA did those years.  John Robinson ran his RBs into the ground at USC.  Marcus Allen had 433 carries in his big year.  

And if Walker played on a pass-oriented team....they'd no longer be pass-oriented.  Otherwise, the OC should be fired.  We saw this with Tennessee and Peyton Manning.  UT ran the ball 40-46-48 plays a game before Manning.  By his SR season, it was down to 33.  The year after he left, back up to 43 (with a NC, no less).  Their roster was built to run more, but Manning's talent sort of hijacked their play-calling.  Not so with HW, as just about every team was running 70-80% of the time n the early 80s.
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Also, in creating so many teams (2,000+) for Whoa Nellie, I know a bit about indivdiual RBs and workload.  There are plenty of others out there who had a higher % of his teams carries IN A SINGLE SEASON.  Walker was special because it was 3 monster years and then he was gone.  

[FearlessF]

not many will argue that Walker was special