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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #252 on: December 20, 2021, 02:12:26 PM »
You don't know that,hell,some of the front offices aren't nearly a informed as we are here.The Kardashians could do as good a job.And if we got a shot I know we could do much better than about 7-8 teams.Belichiks drafts were horrible in the 90's,since 2000, the Browns/Lions/Jaguars/Raiders/Washington for example could have done better with PFF - if/when it was availible - some crazy stupid drafts
I say this nicely, this simply is not true. 

These people might make bad choices, but the depth of how much more they know then us is impressively vast. 

rolltidefan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #253 on: December 20, 2021, 02:18:19 PM »
Not every play he wasn't facing all conference linemen.Show me stats where he lined up more as a DE right across from an OT than a LB is the freaking point.He's good but you can't compare DE stats and apply them to some one is a hybrid.Saban would utilize his speed on the outside even though he's what 6-3 or 4? Why send him into the grind where he could get hung up & there is also a greater chance of injury just by someone falling
you want to keep being ignorant and/or disingenuous go for it.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #254 on: December 20, 2021, 02:23:28 PM »
I say this nicely, this simply is not true.

These people might make bad choices, but the depth of how much more they know then us is impressively vast.
I think cutting between both of you is how the consensus is so often wrong.  Teams can go along with the consensus and not make waves, avoiding criticism in the moment. 
The talking heads are generally positive anytime a pick is made that is within the general consensus.  The fanbase of a team cheers if their team picks who they're slotted to.

5 years later, they're made fun of, but it doesn't matter.  In the moment, they did the "wise" thing of going along with the consensus. 
What it comes down to is the randomness of the whole thing.  Truly great players have garbage careers due to all sorts of reasons - shitty position coach, horrible marriage, an ankle that never heals, poor usage, wrong fit, coach turnover, etc.

It's akin to why I don't really make predictions on games played by 20 year olds....there's no rhyme or reason.  Teams have to draft players and develop their futures, but it's a crapshoot. 

The only team I can think of that's routinely gone against the consensus by design is the Raiders.  Their obsession with 40 times is childish.  And in 17 years, they've had 1 winning season.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #255 on: December 20, 2021, 03:20:29 PM »
I think cutting between both of you is how the consensus is so often wrong.  Teams can go along with the consensus and not make waves, avoiding criticism in the moment. 
The talking heads are generally positive anytime a pick is made that is within the general consensus.  The fanbase of a team cheers if their team picks who they're slotted to.

5 years later, they're made fun of, but it doesn't matter.  In the moment, they did the "wise" thing of going along with the consensus. 
What it comes down to is the randomness of the whole thing.  Truly great players have garbage careers due to all sorts of reasons - shitty position coach, horrible marriage, an ankle that never heals, poor usage, wrong fit, coach turnover, etc.

It's akin to why I don't really make predictions on games played by 20 year olds....there's no rhyme or reason.  Teams have to draft players and develop their futures, but it's a crapshoot.

The only team I can think of that's routinely gone against the consensus by design is the Raiders.  Their obsession with 40 times is childish.  And in 17 years, they've had 1 winning season. 
I play fantasy football. It's easy to try to categorize decisions as "right" or "wrong" when those decisions lead to "wins" or "losses" week to week. 

But that's stupid. There is SO much randomness in the actual result of what happens on the field, that an individual decision and that week's result are barely correlated.

The key is to try to have good process. It's a question of "what's most likely to happen", not "what will happen"? The results over a season, if you have good process, will usually average out to be good. But sometimes the randomness just overwhelms even good process. 

Generally the Patriots have had good process. If they had drafted Brady in the first round because you thought he'd be the eventual GOAT, everyone would have looked at the end result 20 years later and said "OMG what a great decision", but it would have been TERRIBLE process, both because if you're constantly wagering that you're 6th-round "hunch" is going to pay off like a first-rounder, you're probably making a lot of other terrible decisions, but also because if you waste that 1st-round pick on a QB that you could have "reached" for in the 4th or 5th round, the opportunity cost of that draft decision is too high. 

Heck, for most teams who get the #1 overall pick, and pick QB, it's terrible process. If you're the 32nd-best team in the NFL, your problems are WAY bigger than the QB spot. You probably don't have an OL that can block for that QB, and can't open holes in the running game to take pressure off that QB. You probably have a terrible defense that will put that QB into "drop back and chuck it" mode early in every game because you're constantly playing catch-up. So you'll put that QB behind a bad OL in obvious passing downs all year, and then suddenly nobody understands why the QB is shellshocked and not developing. Uhh, it's freakin' obvious why. 

Yes, it's REALLY hard to go to, and win, the Super Bowl without an elite QB. But an elite QB on a bad team won't play like an elite QB, so if you're that bad it's much better to stick with a pedestrian QB until you've upgraded the team around the QB to at least be good. An elite QB can then put you over the hump. 

MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #256 on: December 20, 2021, 03:29:59 PM »
you want to keep being ignorant and/or disingenuous go for it.
So no stats huh,you're that blind you don't see or admit differences between the positions.What part of I like Anderson did you miss.If i plant a 6'7" 320 OT like Bama has in front of you on every play I'm guessing he may hinder your ability to interact with the opposition.As opposed to some one who can move in/out as they choose unmolested
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #257 on: December 20, 2021, 03:34:57 PM »
I say this nicely, this simply is not true.

These people might make bad choices, but the depth of how much more they know then us is impressively vast.
Um,no Those teams drafted like a bag of rats in a burning Meth Lab.These just off the top of my head - I and every fan in Cleveland didn't want  a 28 yr old rookie named Brandon Weeden - in the 1st,2nd or 3rd.There was a reason he was playing against 18-22 yr olds.He turned 29 his rookie season.And to prove that stumble thru stupidity was no fluke they tapped a fidgety waif Johnny Manziel also in the 1st a few yrs later.Get this because the Owner Jimmy Haslem said a homeless guy in a bus shelter told him to.Like he got out of his limo to rub elbows with the unfortunates in society.

 Belichick drafted Craig Powell number one in the '95 draft - he didn't play in '94 sitting out all season with a ripped up knee,he was like 2nd team big ten during the '93 season.So ya let's take him with the 1st pick.BB also drafted a short yardage specialist Touch Down Tommy Vardell in the 1st who stiffed out also.C'mon you don't take a fire plug who'd play sparingly with holes all over the roster - I'm confident enough you wouldn't have done it.He also took Steve Everitt a AA center out of Michigan with a bad knee number 1,but at least he played and was a grinder who toughed it out and a fan favorite to boot because of that.Still a questionable pick there though

 Browns fans were banging their heads like a screen door in a hurricane the letters to local paper had to be deleted because of profanity.I'm not wearing out my keyboard and wasting time regaling anymore of that ka-ka.We here follow college football much more than many of those blisterheads.Go tell ELA or Mdot they couldn't have done better in Detroit,Millen used the 1st pick to drft 4 WRs in 6 years from 2003-2007  - like who needs interior lineman on both sides of the ball.SMDH,if I knew which video I'd post the link to an interview with Jimmy Johnson in 5 yrs he took a 1-15 team into a team that won 3 SBs.He didn't use draft composite's or analytics.The talent guys would drag they're stats and measurables/metrics and show him.And his response was always "ya but can he play".Just saying many here would hold their own - given a full time gig to apply themselves.



"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

rolltidefan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #258 on: December 20, 2021, 03:55:52 PM »
Which player was a down lineman fending off on coming heiffers and which could free lance and pick his spots.Anderson absolutely is impressive but to compare an LB with a DL not only on different teams but different  leagues isn't apples/oranges - reality exists.I would draft according to need

I haven't watched hardly any Bama games,you're saying he was the DE?Or lined up in the vacinity?Big difference,because just chipping a DE with a TE can make a difference in any of those stats.Because the O-Lineman has assignments right across from them,if an LB is behind or outside of LOS containment - it's a different position altogether.If you have stats he lined up as DE then present them.ANderson is 1st rd material but  his position has much more flexibility and leeway is the point

So no stats huh,you're that blind you don't see or admit differences between the positions.What part of I like Anderson did you miss.If i plant a 6'7" 320 OT like Bama has in front of you on every play I'm guessing he may hinder your ability to interact with the opposition.As opposed to some one who can move in/out as they choose unmolested
you said he wasn't a down lineman taking on heiffers, but was freelancing and picking his spots. then you said you didn't watch hardly any of his games.

that stats have been provided ad nauseam to show he's a front line player. i've provided verbal confirmation and video evidence of that. and yet you want "stats" of his position? no one even keeps those kinds of "stats". you want me to go back and change his listed position to de for every game? every play? what kind of asinine person asks for something that doesn't exists, and then ignores the only potential evidence that can be provided?

they did plant 6-7 320 ot's in front of him most plays. but i don't know how i can possibly prove that to someone who admits they didn't watch hardly any of his games, and refuses to believe someone who did and also has video evidence (if limited due to being highlights).

i'll remain "blind" while watching and knowing what i'm talking about. you can keep the ignorance and refusal to admit you're wrong.

rolltidefan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #259 on: December 20, 2021, 03:58:58 PM »
In that video, he lines up at a traditional end spot on all but two plays. The exception is when they’re in 5-2, and he’s on the outside, and a goal line package where he’s an end on a six-man front with four interiors guys.

He’s either on the outside or inside shoulder of the tackle on most plays, save for some where he’s on the strong side and aligned on the tight end’s outside shoulder, as defensive ends often are.

The kid is an end doing mostly end things. (Interestingly Wisconsin’s “linebackers” regularly play more than half the game lined up as “ends”. The wonders of flexible modern football)
maybe mrnubbz needs to see this again.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #260 on: December 20, 2021, 04:00:35 PM »
So no stats huh,you're that blind you don't see or admit differences between the positions.What part of I like Anderson did you miss.If i plant a 6'7" 320 OT like Bama has in front of you on every play I'm guessing he may hinder your ability to interact with the opposition.As opposed to some one who can move in/out as they choose unmolested
He has tackles in front of him most plays. Sometimes it’s guards. Against some formations, it’s tight ends, but that’s not that common.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #261 on: December 20, 2021, 04:04:16 PM »
Um,no Those teams drafted like a bag of rats in a burning Meth Lab.These just off the top of my head - I and every fan in Cleveland didn't want  a 28 yr old rookie named Brandon Weeden - in the 1st,2nd or 3rd.There was a reason he was playing against 18-22 yr olds.He turned 29 his rookie season.And to prove that stumble thru stupidity was no fluke they tapped a fidgety waif Johnny Manziel also in the 1st a few yrs later.Get this because the Owner Jimmy Haslem said a homeless guy in a bus shelter told him to.Like he got out of his limo to rub elbows with the unfortunates in society.

Belichick drafted Craig Powell number one in the '95 draft - he didn't play in '94 sitting out all season with a ripped up knee,he was like 2nd team big ten during the '93 season.So ya let's take him with the 1st pick.BB also drafted a short yardage specialist Touch Down Tommy Vardell in the 1st who stiffed out also.C'mon you don't take a fire plug who'd play sparingly with holes all over the roster - I'm confident enough you wouldn't have done it.He also took Steve Everitt a AA center out of Michigan with a bad knee number 1,but at least he played and was a grinder who toughed it out and a fan favorite to boot because of that.Still a questionable pick there though

Browns fans were banging their heads like a screen door in a hurricane the letters to local paper had to be deleted because of profanity.I'm not wearing out my keyboard and wasting time regaling anymore of that ka-ka.We here follow college football much more than many of those blisterheads.Go tell ELA or Mdot they couldn't have done better in Detroit,Millen used the 1st pick to drft 4 WRs in 6 years from 2003-2007  - like who needs interior lineman on both sides of the ball.SMDH,if I knew which video I'd post the link to an interview with Jimmy Johnson in 5 yrs he took a 1-15 team into a team that won 3 SBs.He didn't use draft composite's or analytics.The talent guys would drag they're stats and measurables/metrics and show him.And his response was always "ya but can he play".Just saying many here would hold their own - given a full time gig to apply themselves.




They did make many poor choices.

I don’t know that any of our friends would do worse. But they would be completely out of their depth knowledge-wise, and there’s no shame in that.

I compare something like this to making a TV show. I’m sure you can find lots of bad TV shows. And it takes a fantastic amount of expertise to produce even a horrendous TV show. Likewise, even very bad personnel people know a ridiculous amount more about football than laymen.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #262 on: December 20, 2021, 04:22:48 PM »
Any team that has the owner chiming in on draft picks is going to fail.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #263 on: December 20, 2021, 04:26:29 PM »

i'll remain "blind" while watching and knowing what i'm talking about. you can keep the ignorance and refusal to admit you're wrong.

I didn't ever say he wasn't a good or greatplayer - so put that thing out you'll burn your fingers?Walk yourself back a few pages and read what the original discussion was - one player is a DE one is an LB. Therefore it's an apples/oranges when comparing stats,ability or usefulness .Because I haven't watched much BAMA shouldn't preclude you - who does from fetching a few stats and answering a question that twisted you off .They don't play the same freakin' position and you don't seem to get that.Don't show his highlights - show the number of times statistically he lined up as True DE if there is to be remtely a fair comparison.Perhaps you haven't noticed in most cases 5 down o-lineman aren't going to cover 4 down lineman and 3 lbs - there are mismatches galore. I even said 2-3 pages back if you are not to broke to pay attention that I'd draft one or the other based on need. 
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #264 on: December 20, 2021, 04:30:24 PM »
You keep suggesting that he's like '86 Lawrence Taylor hopped up on coke and plays freelance.


On what planet is a defensive player going freelance on a Nick Saban-coached team!?!?!  Wake up.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #265 on: December 20, 2021, 04:40:56 PM »
Likewise, even very bad personnel people know a ridiculous amount more about football than laymen.
That's just it we're not layman,we're fanatics.there is not some clinic these guys go to it's natural observation and processing what youve seen.look at some of the things that we.If given the same time afforded those failures at least 5-6-7 guys from he could hold there own.You can watch until your eyes bleed doesn't make your intuition any better
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

 

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