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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #238 on: December 20, 2021, 12:29:59 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 20, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
I was just showing you that those 'free runner' situations happen plenty.

If you look at the rest of either highlight video, these guys make stupid-crazy plays....splitting double-teams, overpowering a 300 lber one play, then slipping through a gap another play. 

I'm surprised that many here seem to poo-poo stats like tackles, TFL, and sacks.  It seems sudden to me.  I can't help but think if Anderson's and Hutchinson's numbers were traded, there wouldn't be this focus on PFF and this downgrading of the common stats.

I'm not trying to say that's the case, I just can't help but think it.
Such is life. Fwiw football hanging on to its traditional stats better than baseball or basketball. But math nerds come for everyone.
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #239 on: December 20, 2021, 12:42:47 PM »
Quote from: rolltidefan on December 20, 2021, 12:21:09 PM
tell me you didn't watch bama play this season without saying you didn't watch bama play this season.

anderson is "lb" in title only. he's at line of scrimage 100% of plays and hand in dirt 80%+ of plays.
I haven't watched hardly any Bama games,you're saying he was the DE?Or lined up in the vacinity?Big difference,because just chipping a DE with a TE can make a difference in any of those stats.Because the O-Lineman has assignments right across from them,if an LB is behind or outside of LOS containment - it's a different position altogether.If you have stats he lined up as DE then present them.ANderson is 1st rd material but  his position has much more flexibility and leeway is the point
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #240 on: December 20, 2021, 12:44:25 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on December 20, 2021, 12:42:47 PM
I haven't watched hardly any Bama games,you're saying he was the DE?Or lined up in the vacinity?Big difference,because just chipping a DE with a TE can make a difference in any of those stats.Because the O-Lineman has assignments right across from them,if an LB is behind or outside of LOS containment - it's a different position altogether.If you have stats he lined up as DE then present them.ANderson is 1st rd material but  his position has much more flexibility and leeway is the point
Part of that flexibility includes pass coverage.  So if he happened to have twice the TFL in fewer pass-rushing opportunities.....DAMN.
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #241 on: December 20, 2021, 12:54:36 PM »
Duly noted and good on him as he was effective but still was not taking the raging bulls head on as DE would is the point.Just like on sweeps many cbs sacrifice themselves on sweeps to the 1st pulling guard or blocker it's the guy behind him whether an OLB or another DB that is free in most circumstances to make the tackle
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #242 on: December 20, 2021, 01:06:37 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 20, 2021, 12:29:12 PM
Right, and I think people who watch the games know about these guys - again, it's the Shawn Springs thing.  I guess I always cite him because the mid-late 90s was the peak of my obsession with college football and he was an All-American caliber CB with no INTS.

I don't know if I'm being painted as the "only the traditional stats matter" guy or not, because that would be false.  But when I see 2 pass-rushers compared to each other and one has nearly DOUBLE the TFL.....I'm not going to just ignore that, lol.
Nobody's saying you should ignore that. You should give it appropriate weight, not overweight or underweight, in your analysis.

Which is the hard part... How much weight is appropriate? 

As I said, the hard part is turning data into information. More data is good, if you're intellectually honest and want to actually reach deeper and more full understanding. More data is BAD if all you want to do is cherry-pick the data which proves the narrative you believed before looking at the data. Most people do the latter, sadly. 
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rolltidefan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #243 on: December 20, 2021, 01:10:34 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on December 20, 2021, 12:42:47 PM
I haven't watched hardly any Bama games,you're saying he was the DE?Or lined up in the vacinity?Big difference,because just chipping a DE with a TE can make a difference in any of those stats.Because the O-Lineman has assignments right across from them,if an LB is behind or outside of LOS containment - it's a different position altogether.If you have stats he lined up as DE then present them.ANderson is 1st rd material but  his position has much more flexibility and leeway is the point
he is the jack lb, which lines up on the weak side of the line in 6 technique. 6 technique is either head up the te or, if no te (which is usually the case on weak side) just outside the ot. their primary responsibilities are to rush the passer and, on run plays, set the edge to turn runners into the lbs. on rare occasions, they'll drop into pass coverage, but it's quite rare. this doesn't matter as much, imo, but he's also most often in a 3 point stance (by a significant amount, too), but will line up in 2 pt stance from time to time on obvious passing downs. but that's not unusual for "true de's" either.

for most peoples' football vernacular, he's a de. he's the outside defensive player on the line of scrimmage that rushes the passer or plugs a gap to stop the run.

i have no idea where to find "stats" saying he line up as a de. his position is technically labelled a lb, so that's where the put him in the stats. he line up inside at dt some too, but they don't change his position for those plays.

tried finding highlight of this season, but they all start after the snap so hard to see where he lined up (here they are anyway). but here is highlights from last year with most showing where he lines up. the first couple happen to be pulling linemen so he has free shots, but after that he's usually going vs an off tackle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGV34gcehPY
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rolltidefan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #244 on: December 20, 2021, 01:12:56 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on December 20, 2021, 12:54:36 PM
Duly noted and good on him as he was effective but still was not taking the raging bulls head on as DE would is the point.Just like on sweeps many cbs sacrifice themselves on sweeps to the 1st pulling guard or blocker it's the guy behind him whether an OLB or another DB that is free in most circumstances to make the tackle
he was taking on the "raging bulls" though. often doubled either with a g or a te/rb.
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rolltidefan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #245 on: December 20, 2021, 01:22:27 PM »
fwiw, i didn't post any of that to take anything away from hutchinson, dude is a top top player.

i posted only to show that anderson wasn't "running around free from blockers behind the dline" like many seem to believe just because the "lb" beside his name.
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bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #246 on: December 20, 2021, 01:27:28 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on December 20, 2021, 12:29:59 PM
Such is life. Fwiw football hanging on to its traditional stats better than baseball or basketball. But math nerds come for everyone.
The funny part:
-In baseball, the nerds upended what the coaches thought
-In basketball, the nerds took what many smart coaches did and mainstreamed it
-In football, most of what the nerds did is what the coaches have done, just with less raw info, but some efficiency and spots where math makes things cleaner.

Like, PFF grading is modeled after what coaches do every week. And the whole NFL uses PFF, not for the grades, but for play databasing purposes.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #247 on: December 20, 2021, 01:49:21 PM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on December 20, 2021, 01:27:28 PM
-In football, most of what the nerds did is what the coaches have done, just with less raw info, but some efficiency and spots where math makes things cleaner.

Like, PFF grading is modeled after what coaches do every week. And the whole NFL uses PFF, not for the grades, but for play databasing purposes.
That's true of player grading, but analytics has also changed the way that coaches approach game situations, regarding going for it on 4th down, going for 2 after a TD, moving more and more to pass-happy offenses, etc. 

Old-school coaches were FAR too risk-averse if you look at the actual numbers, and analytics is changing that. 
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #248 on: December 20, 2021, 01:56:28 PM »
Quote from: rolltidefan on December 20, 2021, 01:12:56 PM
he was taking on the "raging bulls" though. often doubled either with a g or a te/rb.
Not every play he wasn't facing all conference linemen.Show me stats where he lined up more as a DE right across from an OT than a LB is the freaking point.He's good but you can't compare DE stats and apply them to some one is a hybrid.Saban would utilize his speed on the outside even though he's what 6-3 or 4? Why send him into the grind where he could get hung up & there is also a greater chance of injury just by someone falling
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bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #249 on: December 20, 2021, 01:59:10 PM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on December 20, 2021, 01:49:21 PM
That's true of player grading, but analytics has also changed the way that coaches approach game situations, regarding going for it on 4th down, going for 2 after a TD, moving more and more to pass-happy offenses, etc.

Old-school coaches were FAR too risk-averse if you look at the actual numbers, and analytics is changing that.
I mean, it’s true of most facets. Tendencies, pressure numbers, target numbers, formational and personnel stuff, the great bounty of situational analysis.

There’s weirdly that small part of situational analysis, that they’ve been super weird about, especially considering the fact someone is always pushing for something new somewhere.
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #250 on: December 20, 2021, 02:05:36 PM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on December 20, 2021, 01:27:28 PM
Like, PFF grading is modeled after what coaches do every week. And the whole NFL uses PFF, not for the grades, but for play databasing purposes.
You don't know that,hell,some of the front offices aren't nearly a informed as we are here.The Kardashians could do as good a job.And if we got a shot I know we could do much better than about 7-8 teams.Belichiks drafts were horrible in the 90's,since 2000, the Browns/Lions/Jaguars/Raiders/Washington for example could have done better with PFF - if/when it was availible - some crazy stupid drafts
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bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #251 on: December 20, 2021, 02:09:58 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on December 20, 2021, 01:56:28 PM
Not every play he wasn't facing all conference linemen.Show me stats where he lined up more as a DE right across from an OT than a LB is the freaking point.He's good but you can't compare DE stats and apply them to some one is a hybrid.Saban would utilize his speed on the outside even though he's what 6-3 or 4? Why send him into the grind where he could get hung up & there is also a greater chance of injury just by someone falling
In that video, he lines up at a traditional end spot on all but two plays. The exception is when they’re in 5-2, and he’s on the outside, and a goal line package where he’s an end on a six-man front with four interiors guys.

He’s either on the outside or inside shoulder of the tackle on most plays, save for some where he’s on the strong side and aligned on the tight end’s outside shoulder, as defensive ends often are.

The kid is an end doing mostly end things. (Interestingly Wisconsin’s “linebackers” regularly play more than half the game lined up as “ends”. The wonders of flexible modern football)
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