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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2021, 05:56:32 PM »
Which player was a down lineman fending off on coming heiffers and which could free lance and pick his spots.Anderson absolutely is impressive but to compare an LB with a DL not only on different teams but different  leagues isn't apples/oranges - reality exists.I would draft according to need
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MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2021, 07:40:40 PM »

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33 tackles, 13.5 TFL, and a 1.5 sack difference.  Tell me more about pressures?
Yes! You definitely want to know more about pressures! When the stats available are kind of silly and not very informative, you have to look for more information. Otherwise you end up thinking Aidan Hutchinson and Chase Young are basically as good as Greg Middleton.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2021, 09:28:46 PM »
It may be unintentional, but you keep using that word "good."

I feel like I've been using the word "productive."  

And I guess I don't give a shit how good a player is if he's not as productive as a less-good player.  Is that all fair?
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #199 on: December 17, 2021, 10:05:09 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 17, 2021, 09:28:46 PM
It may be unintentional, but you keep using that word "good."

I feel like I've been using the word "productive." 

And I guess I don't give a shit how good a player is if he's not as productive as a less-good player.  Is that all fair?
I don't know that it's unfair, but it depends on how you define productive. The goal of the defense is to prevent points being scored. The goal of the offense is scoring points. Offensive statistics for skill players have the advantage of being directly tied to scoring points (and the secondary part, gaining yards). Defensive statistics don't have this. They are quite crappy in actually measuring a particular player's impact on the defense. 

So when we say a player is productive, are we talking about actually improving the defense, or just recording popular statistics?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #200 on: December 18, 2021, 05:07:56 AM »
Both.

But to make a claim requires evidence.  If I claim Player B was great and benefitted his team, that's great, but you have to provide evidence.  I'm not going to listen to one moment of any faith-based rating system of players.

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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #201 on: December 18, 2021, 06:48:00 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 18, 2021, 05:07:56 AM
Both.

But to make a claim requires evidence.  If I claim Player B was great and benefitted his team, that's great, but you have to provide evidence.  I'm not going to listen to one moment of any faith-based rating system of players.
Hence the references to PFF and the NFL
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #202 on: December 18, 2021, 06:58:13 AM »
Okay, but PFF is a number from a (I assume) formula.  Care to unpack that?
If player B is rated 3 points better than player A vs running plays...what does that mean?  3% of running plays better?  3 blocker-engagements on running plays in night games on the road?
PFF could be a fun stat source for fans and media types that the actual NFL teams laugh at behind closed doors.

I don't know what the NFL has to do with anything. 
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #203 on: December 18, 2021, 07:30:47 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 18, 2021, 06:58:13 AM
Okay, but PFF is a number from a (I assume) formula.  Care to unpack that?
If player B is rated 3 points better than player A vs running plays...what does that mean?  3% of running plays better?  3 blocker-engagements on running plays in night games on the road?
PFF could be a fun stat source for fans and media types that the actual NFL teams laugh at behind closed doors.

I don't know what the NFL has to do with anything. 
PFF claims to grade a player on every play, then converts the score to a percentage. It is not a formula, but essentially a subjective score for a game or the season based on evaluating their play. 

The NFL is where the best football players get paid to play football, so they have an very compelling interest in choosing who the best players are.
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bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #204 on: December 18, 2021, 07:35:06 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 18, 2021, 06:58:13 AM
Okay, but PFF is a number from a (I assume) formula.  Care to unpack that?
If player B is rated 3 points better than player A vs running plays...what does that mean?  3% of running plays better?  3 blocker-engagements on running plays in night games on the road?
PFF could be a fun stat source for fans and media types that the actual NFL teams laugh at behind closed doors.
On every play, every player gets a grade between -2 and 2 1/2 in half point increments (zero is average/unremarkable, And the standard runs from catastrophic to extremely outstanding). They have some kind of rubrics for this. The score of all plays get adjusted to a 100 point scale.

It is neither perfect nor a be all end all, but it is a solid tool. I know there’s some skeptics in the deeper football community, and that’s ok. They’d scoff at tackles totals too.

It’s frankly a little disappointing you didn’t just Google this. It’s very easy. in for a person who prides himself on trying to KNOW lots of things and acting like he knows lots of things, falling back on the “night games on the road” splits defense of one’s own ignorance is a bit surprising. Reads like one of those people who’s confused about going for 2 earlier instead of later.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #205 on: December 18, 2021, 08:07:29 AM »
I can look it up, but I didn't introduce it to the conversation.  

MaxySamy inserted it into the conversation in support of Hutchinson as being perhaps the best defensive college football player ever.  I'm still stunned by that.  I wouldn't have the gall to suggest that about anyone, much less the 'hot' player in the moment, lol.

Anyway, he retorts with something like, "yeah, but PFF grades him out as the best in pass rush and over 85 vs the run" with no context or additional support.  
Great, but is Anderson 2nd?  30th?  

It'd be like talking about the greatest basketball players and mentioning a guy's height.  What?!?  Cool, but.......gonna need more.  Is it a crime to ask for more?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #206 on: December 18, 2021, 08:10:42 AM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on December 18, 2021, 07:35:06 AM
On every play, every player gets a grade between -2 and 2 1/2 in half point increments (zero is average/unremarkable, And the standard runs from catastrophic to extremely outstanding). They have some kind of rubrics for this. The score of all plays get adjusted to a 100 point scale.

Quote from: MaximumSam on December 18, 2021, 07:30:47 AM
PFF claims to grade a player on every play, then converts the score to a percentage. It is not a formula, but essentially a subjective score for a game or the season based on evaluating their play.

Yes, it's a formula.  
When you just decide the range you want and it's in half-point increments because 'reasons,' yes, it's a formula.  Simplistic and arbitrary, but a formula nonethelss.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #207 on: December 18, 2021, 08:33:25 AM »

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MaxySamy inserted it into the conversation in support of Hutchinson as being perhaps the best defensive college football player ever. 
I didn't say he was the best defensive player ever. I said he was having one of the best seasons ever for a defensive player. Which, btw, is objectively true, considering he was great, his team went from unranked to the playoffs, and he finished second in the Heisman voting. So I don't know why you would be surprised by it. 



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Yes, it's a formula.  

When you just decide the range you want and it's in half-point increments because 'reasons,' yes, it's a formula.  Simplistic and arbitrary, but a formula nonethelss.
Well, it is a formula in the same way that adding up tackles to get a total result is a formula. Some formulas are much more objective - like KenPom rankings or SP+, which are basically inputting stats into an algorithm and spitting out a result. PFF is not objective - it is basically someone watching a guy and telling you how good he was in a game.
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FearlessF

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #208 on: December 18, 2021, 12:17:40 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on December 17, 2021, 07:40:40 PM
Yes! You definitely want to know more about pressures! When the stats available are kind of silly and not very informative, you have to look for more information. Otherwise you end up thinking Aidan Hutchinson and Chase Young are basically as good as Greg Middleton.

I'd like defensive stats to include offensive holding calls forced

many times the offensive player holding prevents a TFL or a sack, but the result of the penalty can force a punt or kick, ending the drive
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bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #209 on: December 18, 2021, 05:37:59 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 18, 2021, 08:10:42 AM
Yes, it's a formula. 
When you just decide the range you want and it's in half-point increments because 'reasons,' yes, it's a formula.  Simplistic and arbitrary, but a formula nonethelss.
Yards per carry is a Formula. What does being a formula have to do with anything?
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