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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #168 on: December 16, 2021, 09:16:00 AM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2021, 10:55:05 PM
So the "most outstanding player" in all of college football is based on how many eyeballs tune in?
no. most of the voters who vote for the award don't attend games. they watch them on tv, and they don't watch them all. they probably just watch a handful of them, chief among them the biggest most watched games.

it's increasingly become a best QB on the shiny helmet team award. the shinier the helmet a player wears the better his chances of exposure and winning that award. hutchinson wears one of the shiniest of shiny helmets that attracts more eyeballs and exposure than just about any helmet.

to win that award or even be a finalist as a non-helmet you have to have an insane year ala Barry Sanders or RGIII.
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Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #169 on: December 16, 2021, 09:36:33 PM »
Of the top 5 highest rated games on TV in CFB this year, Michigan played in 3 of them.

1) Michigan - Ohio State - 15.9 million viewers 
3) Michigan - Iowa - B1G CCG - 11.7 million viewers 
5) Michigan - Michigan State - 9.3 million viewers  (3rd highest rated regular season game)
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #170 on: December 16, 2021, 09:39:41 PM »
Do you guys think the actual "best player" over the course of the last 7+ decades has fallen in a normal distribution of player positions?
Whether you break it down by QB-RB-WR-TE-T-G-C, etc or more broadly, like QB-RB-pass catcher-OL-DL-LB-DB....what do you think?  Maybe certain positions are discounted, like CB > S or OT > OG, etc?

Or maybe some of you think QB > OL or even QB > WR?

What do you guys think?  Have 10-20 offensive linemen warranted a Heisman?  Or X% of cornerbacks?  
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Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #171 on: December 16, 2021, 09:44:36 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 16, 2021, 09:39:41 PM
Do you guys think the actual "best player" over the course of the last 7+ decades has fallen in a normal distribution of player positions?
Whether you break it down by QB-RB-WR-TE-T-G-C, etc or more broadly, like QB-RB-pass catcher-OL-DL-LB-DB....what do you think?  Maybe certain positions are discounted, like CB > S or OT > OG, etc?

Or maybe some of you think QB > OL or even QB > WR?

What do you guys think?  Have 10-20 offensive linemen warranted a Heisman?  Or X% of cornerbacks? 
IF Orlando Pace, Joe Thomas, or Jake Long never won the Heisman or finished even runner up- don't think any OL ever will.
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FearlessF

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #172 on: December 16, 2021, 09:46:37 PM »
Dave Rimington won the Outland Trophy, given to the nation's top interior offensive or defensive lineman, in 1981 and 1982 and is the only two-time winner of the award. He also won the Lombardi Award in 1982, and placed fifth in the balloting for the Heisman Trophy that same year.
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SuperMario

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #173 on: December 16, 2021, 10:43:03 PM »
Quote from: Mdot21 on December 16, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
IF Orlando Pace, Joe Thomas, or Jake Long never won the Heisman or finished even runner up- don't think any OL ever will.
Thank goodness Danny Wuerfful beat out Pace in ‘96. You can clearly see in the following years that Danny was the superior talent.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #174 on: December 16, 2021, 11:50:36 PM »
Do you really think the Heisman should go to the best pro prospect?


You guys don't seem to understand.

I'm not saying these other positions will win one.  I'm asking if you think the talent of football players is evenly distributed among all positions.  If that's the case, then the Heisman "should" have been awarded to all positions equally over the years.

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MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2021, 06:59:26 AM »
Quote
Quote
Greg Middleton had a similar season for IU in 2007.  But no one was on the internet saying he had the best season ever.  Weird.
Well known future 11th round draft pick of the Florida Tuskers Greg Middleton. He was basically Aidan Hutchinson, but no one paid attention because he played for Indiana. Even teams that played Indiana didn't pay attention. Poor Greg Middleton.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 08:43:28 AM by MaximumSam »
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MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2021, 07:05:43 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 16, 2021, 11:50:36 PM
Do you really think the Heisman should go to the best pro prospect?


You guys don't seem to understand.

I'm not saying these other positions will win one.  I'm asking if you think the talent of football players is evenly distributed among all positions.  If that's the case, then the Heisman "should" have been awarded to all positions equally over the years.
Id' say the talent distribution is probably best analyzed by how the NFL drafts and then pays players, which is a lot more even than the Heisman. Some positions are more important than others, namely quarterback. The biggest issue with the Heisman is how it defaults to offensive skill position players over defensive players pretty much no matter what. 
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Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2021, 09:16:05 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 16, 2021, 11:50:36 PM
Do you really think the Heisman should go to the best pro prospect?


You guys don't seem to understand.

I'm not saying these other positions will win one.  I'm asking if you think the talent of football players is evenly distributed among all positions.  If that's the case, then the Heisman "should" have been awarded to all positions equally over the years.
you could make a great case that Orlando Pace was the best player in 1996. Probably should've went to him, if we're talking "best player". He was the most dominant college OL I think ever. He wasn't just a #1 overall NFL Draft pick and NFL HOF'er. He was fricken insane in college. He was like a cheat code.

Think you could even make case for Jake Long in 2007. Of course his impact isn't as big as the QB- no player can have as big an impact on a game as the QB. But that whole season, Jake Long was just burying people. No one could get pressure on the QB on him and he was an absolute bully in the run game. I still remember that bowl game vs UF where Jake Long turned Derrick Harvey from Florida into his bitch boy all game long. 

Absolutely freakish, dominant LT's like that will never win the award, but damn some years they probably should. 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2021, 11:05:07 AM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on December 17, 2021, 06:59:26 AM

Well known future 11th round draft pick of the Florida Tuskers Greg Middleton. He was basically Aidan Hutchinson, but no one paid attention because he played for Indiana. Even teams that played Indiana didn't pay attention. Poor Greg Middleton.

There seems to be a popular opinion that a player's true ability level and what they do in the NFL has some bearing on whether they deserve a college award for their production during 1 season.  

How's that work?

Are voters supposed to see what they did and then predict who will do better in the future, then cast their vote based on that??
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #179 on: December 17, 2021, 11:07:42 AM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on December 17, 2021, 07:05:43 AM
Id' say the talent distribution is probably best analyzed by how the NFL drafts and then pays players, which is a lot more even than the Heisman. Some positions are more important than others, namely quarterback. The biggest issue with the Heisman is how it defaults to offensive skill position players over defensive players pretty much no matter what.
Was the QB more important in 1985?  1970?  Certainly it'd be a hard case to make when most teams were playing single-wing football and the halfbacks had as many pass attempts as the QB did.

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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2021, 11:16:02 AM »


Quote from: MaximumSam on December 17, 2021, 07:05:43 AM
Id' say the talent distribution is probably best analyzed by how the NFL drafts and then pays players, which is a lot more even than the Heisman. Some positions are more important than others, namely quarterback. The biggest issue with the Heisman is how it defaults to offensive skill position players over defensive players pretty much no matter what.
Also, isn't part of the reason QBs are so valued is that there is only one you use in a given season (if everything goes to plan)?
You need more than 1 RB.
You need more WRs/TEs than RBs.
You need 5 OL.
Etc.
.
Is QB important because of its scarcity?  Sure, he touches the ball on every play, but each pass-rusher could beat his blocker every play and sack the QB, no?  In theory.  
I've created teams for my Whoa Nellie game where the team has passed fewer than 10% of the time...I'm going to have a hard time valuing the QB so highly there.

But more so, as we discussed on another topic, the NFL is radically more even across the board than college football.  I'm not sure what they value can be applied to an individual college football season.  Remember, even the NFL draft is based on what the players MIGHT become as much as it's about what a player has already done.
I don't care if a RB runs a 4.8 in the 40, if he rushes for 1,800 yards vs a good schedule, he's a (college) badass.  He'll go undrafted and never play football again, but for a college award, he's worthy.
I'll never understand this inability or unwillingness to separate college and pro, when valuing players.  They are 2 completely different animals.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2021, 11:52:49 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 17, 2021, 11:05:07 AM
There seems to be a popular opinion that a player's true ability level and what they do in the NFL has some bearing on whether they deserve a college award for their production during 1 season. 

How's that work?

Are voters supposed to see what they did and then predict who will do better in the future, then cast their vote based on that??
While their are differences in the NFL and college games, the biggest difference is that the NFL has much better players. The NFL isn't the end all and be all, but if the NFL thinks one guy can't play in the NFL and thinks the other guy is the best player in the game, then I'd put a lot more stock into that over whatever stats were accumulated.
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