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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #210 on: December 18, 2021, 05:55:57 PM »
Curiosity, lol.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #211 on: December 18, 2021, 05:58:05 PM »
I'd like defensive stats to include offensive holding calls forced

many times the offensive player holding prevents a TFL or a sack, but the result of the penalty can force a punt or kick, ending the drive
Sure, I wish football stat-keepers were as thorough as baseball ones.  I'd love to know how many sacks/TFL a guy has when he's completely unaccounted for by the offense's plays.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #212 on: December 18, 2021, 07:43:27 PM »
Sure, I wish football stat-keepers were as thorough as baseball ones.  I'd love to know how many sacks/TFL a guy has when he's completely unaccounted for by the offense's plays. 

What would be an example of "completely unaccounted for"?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #213 on: December 18, 2021, 07:45:13 PM »
Unblocked, ignored.  

And not like some kind of Lawrence Taylor - Im going to run down the RB on a sweep away from me thing.....just a  normal play where that successful defensive play had no obstacle.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #214 on: December 19, 2021, 12:23:16 AM »
Unblocked, ignored. 

And not like some kind of Lawrence Taylor - Im going to run down the RB on a sweep away from me thing.....just a  normal play where that successful defensive play had no obstacle.
Ahh. Interestingly, this would actually be a semi-good use for PFF. (I was looking for a video example, if you had one)

The problem with this thing you mention is that being unblocked is often not being ignored. And it can be for many sorts of reasons. Sometimes its because you're fast. Sometimes a line communication. Sometimes an unblocked backside DE gets a TFL because the front side set the edge well. Sometimes you scheme up a really nasty blitz. And sometimes it's just a pain to tell that. 

I was at a game a few years back. One of the first plays, the tackle in front of a stud DE blocks down, he races at the handoff unmolested, TFL. A guy near me curses about the tackle, and I'm sure a lot of folks would see it and say "that fella was unblocked and ignored." Only the play was counter, and you had a guard coming across to get him. Now, that guard was not fast and the DE was, and thus, races in untouched. But it wasn't a freebee. 

Like, no plays are designed simply not to account for someone. They account for them in different ways. Sometimes that way doesn't work out. And the meaning from those stats would just not be worth the time. You'd actually be better off tracking the inverse, something like defeated blocks or tackles made when somewhat blocked. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #215 on: December 19, 2021, 12:35:02 AM »
Unblocked, ignored. 

And not like some kind of Lawrence Taylor - Im going to run down the RB on a sweep away from me thing.....just a  normal play where that successful defensive play had no obstacle.
Like when those Gator players were blocking each other? 



bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #216 on: December 19, 2021, 12:43:56 AM »
this lmao. a play in which the OL & TE blew their assignments- Clowney went completely unblocked and blew up Vincent Smith- a 5'6, 170 pound RB.

CloWNeY iZ dAh GrAyTESSSST EVVVVURRRRRR.
Just the TE. Not the OL. Granted, asking a tight end to down block with the speed of Clowney's get off, that ain't gonna end well. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #217 on: December 19, 2021, 02:12:03 AM »
Ahh. Interestingly, this would actually be a semi-good use for PFF. (I was looking for a video example, if you had one)

The problem with this thing you mention is that being unblocked is often not being ignored. And it can be for many sorts of reasons. Sometimes its because you're fast. Sometimes a line communication. Sometimes an unblocked backside DE gets a TFL because the front side set the edge well. Sometimes you scheme up a really nasty blitz. And sometimes it's just a pain to tell that.

I was at a game a few years back. One of the first plays, the tackle in front of a stud DE blocks down, he races at the handoff unmolested, TFL. A guy near me curses about the tackle, and I'm sure a lot of folks would see it and say "that fella was unblocked and ignored." Only the play was counter, and you had a guard coming across to get him. Now, that guard was not fast and the DE was, and thus, races in untouched. But it wasn't a freebee.

Like, no plays are designed simply not to account for someone. They account for them in different ways. Sometimes that way doesn't work out. And the meaning from those stats would just not be worth the time. You'd actually be better off tracking the inverse, something like defeated blocks or tackles made when somewhat blocked.
There are many plays designed not to block someone.  
In your example, the guard was supposed to block the end, but was too slow.  I don't care.  I care that the end made the play without an obstacle.  That'd be an "unblocked TFL."
All read-option plays today leave a defender unblocked.  If the QB makes the wrong read and keeps the ball, boom, there's an unblocked TFL.  
Play-action rollouts and bootlegs also often leave an unblocked DE, but that was much more common 20 years ago.

Anyway, if the offense screws up and the defender makes the play without being blocked, he benefits without causing the problem.  It's a dumb-luck thing and accounts for a small % of plays, but it exists and I wonder what the numbers on it are.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #218 on: December 19, 2021, 08:36:08 AM »
There are many plays designed not to block someone. 
In your example, the guard was supposed to block the end, but was too slow.  I don't care.  I care that the end made the play without an obstacle.  That'd be an "unblocked TFL."
All read-option plays today leave a defender unblocked.  If the QB makes the wrong read and keeps the ball, boom, there's an unblocked TFL. 
Play-action rollouts and bootlegs also often leave an unblocked DE, but that was much more common 20 years ago.

Anyway, if the offense screws up and the defender makes the play without being blocked, he benefits without causing the problem.  It's a dumb-luck thing and accounts for a small % of plays, but it exists and I wonder what the numbers on it are.
OK. So some of the things described above are not the bolded part. 

And I suppose it would be interesting to combine freak plays (a guy is so fast he beats the blocking), bad guess plays (you pop out the tackle and the defender takes an inside lane), plays when a defender just wins a mental game (sets up outside, breaks inside), when someone is a good weapon on an overload blitz, plus bad reads, people who force and option decision and make the play anyway and a few other categories. 

But the problem is, the stat wouldn't show "a dumb-luck thing." But it would be waved around like it did and make us just a bit stupider about this sport. 

(There's an interesting play that comes to mind here, a Clowney one. He's going against Florida and it's late. They run a triple option to his side. The first fake has him turn his shoulders, though not outright pursue. This is usually enough to gain some width, instead he chases down the QB. This is fine, he pitches it away. Still Clowney keeps after it. A safety has helped hem in the back and Clowney finishes the play. So you have an unblocked guy trigger two option reads and chase down the play. As my college's boring coach would say "Dumb luck my f*&^ing ass")

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #219 on: December 19, 2021, 10:24:45 AM »
The important part is that this is what PFF is meant to grade. It's people who understand football actually evaluating a player's actions on the play. 

Pretty sure they'll grade a DB who happens to make an INT when the QB sails a pass over the receiver's head and the DB just happens to be in the right place to catch it a lot lower than a DB who makes an athletic leap to high point the ball and rip it away from the WR. 

PFF is trying to include that nuance that isn't captured in the box score.

MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #220 on: December 19, 2021, 10:42:53 AM »
Well put - "Lies,damn lies and statistics" if you're a scouting dept something you would consider
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #221 on: December 19, 2021, 01:18:57 PM »


(There's an interesting play that comes to mind here, a Clowney one. He's going against Florida and it's late. They run a triple option to his side. The first fake has him turn his shoulders, though not outright pursue. This is usually enough to gain some width, instead he chases down the QB. This is fine, he pitches it away. Still Clowney keeps after it. A safety has helped hem in the back and Clowney finishes the play. So you have an unblocked guy trigger two option reads and chase down the play. As my college's boring coach would say "Dumb luck my f*&^ing ass")
No, that wouldn't be what I'm talking about.  
I'm sure you could come up with 100 others that don't fit what I'm talking about.  Instead of focusing on double-reverse passes, maybe consider the plays that happen 97% of the time instead of 0.0001%.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #222 on: December 19, 2021, 06:42:43 PM »
No, that wouldn't be what I'm talking about. 
I'm sure you could come up with 100 others that don't fit what I'm talking about.  Instead of focusing on double-reverse passes, maybe consider the plays that happen 97% of the time instead of 0.0001%.
But again that's what PFF is meant for. If a DE is unblocked due to an offensive mistake and gets a 1 yard TFL, it'll be graded differently than if he splits a double team for that same 1 yard TFL.

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #223 on: December 19, 2021, 07:59:36 PM »
PFF actually talks in their little brochure about Vic Beasley leading the league in sacks one year, but upon closer review half his sacks weren't particularly special.

 

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