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Topic: Misfits Thread

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3150 on: June 09, 2020, 05:33:19 PM »
That's just it - the black-on-black violence is partly due to the systematic racism that keeps them poor and in segregated neighborhoods.
What do you think the black-on-black murder rate was 60 years ago when de facto segregation was usually the rule even where it was not the law?

Higher or lower than it is now?
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3151 on: June 09, 2020, 05:38:25 PM »
Were statistics back then reliably kept?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3152 on: June 09, 2020, 05:44:12 PM »
What do you think the black-on-black murder rate was 60 years ago when de facto segregation was usually the rule even where it was not the law?

Higher or lower than it is now?
I don't know, I assume it was lower.  Less people, fewer guns.

But you bring that up....segregation when it was the rule was bad.  But segregation when it's supposedly illegal is worse, no?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3153 on: June 09, 2020, 05:49:09 PM »
I think Jim Crow laws where government was responsible for enforcing them was much worse than racism not espoused and enforced by government.

Since 1993, violent crime rates have dropped markedly while the number of guns in private hands has gone up markedly.  There are some caveats here, including the usual cause and effect notation.

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3154 on: June 09, 2020, 06:06:22 PM »
https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america

More than 60 years. Forgive me.
Yes, the New Deal was explicitly segregated.  For two major reasons that come right to mind.
First, the party that was in power (are we allowed to say its name?) had a southern wing that was effectively the KKK in regular clothes.
Second, the northern wing of the party that was in power was dependent on the support of Big Labor, which for the most part excluded blacks.  Because of that, the federal government legislated that all New Deal contractors would pay "the prevailing wage," which meant the union wage, which meant blacks couldn't get the jobs.
So the federal government's actions worked to ensure that African Americans could not find good housing and could not find good jobs.
That southern/KKK wing of the party in power was still going strong during WWII, and was a major reason that we (the USA) only took a relative handful of Jewish refugees from the wonderfulness of Nazi Germany in the late '30s-early '40s.
I've only begun that article.  It's right on the mark so far, though.

Here's an excerpt from something awhile back.

Quote
“In Langston Hughes’ autobiography, he describes how he lived [from 1916 to 1920] in an integrated neighborhood in Cleveland. His best friend in high school was Polish. He dated a Jewish girl. That neighborhood in Cleveland was [later] razed by the [PWA], which built two segregated [ones], one for African-Americans, one for whites. The Depression gave the stimulus for the first civilian public housing to be built. Were it not for that policy, many of these cities might have developed with a different residential pattern.”

~ Richard Rothstein
Interviewed by Katie Nodjimbadem
“The Racial Segregation of American Cities Was Anything But Accidental”
Smithsonian.com, May 30, 2017

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3155 on: June 09, 2020, 06:09:44 PM »
Your words were:

"I fear if the racial aspect was removed, some of you would care more"

you are saying we dont care as much cause hes black which is calling us racists

if you didnt mean that then say so
It's the Motte-and-Bailey argument at work again.
Make an outrageous statement, get called on it, retreat to a defensible position, and say that's what you meant all along.
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3156 on: June 09, 2020, 06:12:42 PM »
Motte & Bailey did they make a Wine Spritzer or something
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3158 on: June 09, 2020, 06:15:39 PM »
Nothing will change until the root causes of the problems are addressed. Detroit is more violent than Chicago on a per capita basis. Chicago is just a much larger city with a much larger population and more violent crime total. Per capita, Detroit is much worse however. Both cities and many in the rust belt have suffered from an economic collapse in these poverty stricken neighborhoods that is tied to well-paying manufacturing jobs evaporating from these communities.

Chicago has more gang members than any city in America with 70,000+, according to the FBI. And most of the gun violence is tied to the drug-trade turf war these gangs have going on amongst eachother.

Nothing will change until something is done to address the poverty in these neighborhoods and the piss poor educational system in these neighborhoods, and until the endless, wasteful, harmful "war on drugs" is ended. The schools in most of these poor inner-cities are a joke.

Jesse Jackson or Big Al can't do anything to change this. At all. Change has to come from the top levels of federal and state gov't, and from US multi-nationals actually giving a damn about employing people in these communities.
Trillions of dollars of programs have "been done" to address these "root causes," starting in 1965.  Most of that money seems to have done more harm than good.  Poverty, which was on a steady decline throughout the 1950s, stopped declining in about 1967, and now just fluctuates as the economy fluctuates.  Black poverty, which was declining faster than white poverty from 1950 to 1967-ish, now holds steady at a higher rate than the overall poverty rate.

The Law of Unexpected Consequences never sleeps.
I agree with you about the War on Drugs, which you have criticized elsewhere.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3159 on: June 09, 2020, 06:18:58 PM »
Since 1993, violent crime rates have dropped markedly while the number of guns in private hands has gone up markedly.  There are some caveats here, including the usual cause and effect notation.
For a lot of reasons, I'm leery of anything Kevin Drum says. That said, he does appear to be an independent thinker, and not beholden to political party or ideology even though he's generally a solid lefty. 

One pet theory he's been pushing over the many years I've read him is the lead-crime link. 

Violent crime was going up consistently, in the 1960s, regardless of any other known external factors, peaking in the early 1990s. Violent crime has gone down consistently, almost regardless of any other known external factors, since the early 90s. 

The theory is that leaded gasoline emissions rose and rose through the beginning of the century and then rose sharply after WWII. Starting in the 1970s, we phased out leaded gasoline. Given time lag (~18 years from early childhood exposure to prime crime-committing years), that basically lines up perfectly with the peak and the decline. 

A much more detailed post than I can do justice here: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/

Essentially, while I think Drum is a left-wing wacko on a lot of things, he appears to have done some really great work putting this together. 

You can credit increased gun ownership with the reduced crime, but I'd argue that's confirmation bias for liking guns in the first place--at least for a lot of people. I think there's a much stronger argument that a lot of violent crime was caused by lead exposure.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3160 on: June 09, 2020, 06:19:58 PM »
It's the Motte-and-Bailey argument at work again.
Make an outrageous statement, get called on it, retreat to a defensible position, and say that's what you meant all along.
Or, I didn't see it until just now.

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3161 on: June 09, 2020, 06:22:40 PM »
Texas Road House chili?

Who would want to eat chili made by a restaurant that started out in Indiana?
I'll eat any chili that has a lot of meat and not too many beans.  I'm not picky.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3162 on: June 09, 2020, 06:24:59 PM »
Screw you Jobu - I do it myself
He'll need a VISA card to catch that one
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3163 on: June 09, 2020, 06:26:47 PM »
Not all unions are created equal.

Us engineers have our own union, but that didn't help one that I know when he forgot to renew his license. On top of having to pay a four-figure fine for practicing without a valid license, since our PDs require a valid license for that pay grade, he had to go on an unpaid leave of absence for the duration of his suspension. That is why I was very careful on how I phrased things between June 2018 and this past January.
Public-employee unions are problematic in a way that private-sector unions are not.  Public employees' union dues go in part toward political contributions to the same people with whom they negotiate their pay and working rules.
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