Author
Topic: SEC Front Porch
(Read 252976 times)

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #1302 on:** **Today** at 10:30:35 AM »

I can't speak to Alabama, though I have my suspicions about a few guys in particular.

I think it's very unlikely that LSU had bag men and slush funds and all the other tropes that are bandied about concerning SEC teams. Because LSU's compliance department was legendary. It is a well known fact that the C.D. was somewhat hostile towards the Ath. Dept. Why that was, I don't know the full story.  They self-reported the most minor of instances long before the NCAA could ever get wind of anything, and probably things that the NCAA would never have found out about. They self-imposed scholarship limitations and other penalties, such that when the NCAA did make it around to coming to investigate a couple of instances, all they could do was issue a "Yeah, what they said" sticker, pointing to the compliance department. Granted, the NCAA looked favorably on schools who admitted wrongdoing and didn't lie about it. But Compliance was way up LSU sports' rectum in those days. The differences in how LSU's C.D. were reported to operate and how places like, Auburn, for example, operated, are night and day.

But there were only a couple of minor infractions to begin with, in those days. Prior to that, LSU had gone the longest of any SEC school not named Vanderbilt without any sneaky activity. And they came after LSU was already well into it's decade of great success.

There's just no evidence and not even any smoke around all those players that came in during those days. Most of them were from Louisiana, LSU was a big draw for Louisiana kids, and Saban and Miles and their staffs were great recruiters.

I've heard that's not as much the case anymore. Meaning, I don't know what might be going on there or not, but the Compliance Department is not hostile any longer, digging around trying to get the programs in trouble.  Probably lots of turnover in a place like that, with different state politicians removing and appointing their own people, who in turn probably hire in and move out the people they want/don't want, respectively.

jgvol · « **Reply #1303 on:** **Today** at 10:43:55 AM »

Quote from: Gigem on Today at 09:59:52 AM

Legit question, I'd like an honest answer.

Do you really think that essentially, Alabama and before that LSU, had real bag men to simply buy the best players and that's why they were so successful. And once those bagmen no longer could buy the best players, Saban knew his competitive edge was up?

Unserious remark:
Please omit references about A&M's bag men , clearly they weren't up to snuff.

Bama did, for sure. Unless all the players families were well off, since they were all driving Escalades and Challengers.

LSU being the only game in town, and the proximity to a crazy amount of athletes -- I'd imagine less so.

https://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/why-do-so-many-alabama-crimson-tide-football-players-drive-nice-cars

Cincydawg · « **Reply #1304 on:** **Today** at 10:50:54 AM »

My guess is literal "bag men" became uncommon after ca. 1990 or so. There are a lot of ways to convey "benefits" and enticements without bag men.

At one point, the starting QB for Bama was not on scholarship. Why? He came from a wealthy family who donated a lot to the athletic department anyway. This freed up another scholarship for another player.

Even when I was in school, it was alleged that the star players all had "summer jobs" at local car dealerships and whatnot, to which they never showed up but were paid.

Gigem · « **Reply #1305 on:** **Today** at 10:52:00 AM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on Today at 10:30:35 AM

I can't speak to Alabama, though I have my suspicions about a few guys in particular.

I think it's very unlikely that LSU had bag men and slush funds and all the other tropes that are bandied about concerning SEC teams. Because LSU's compliance department was legendary. It is a well known fact that the C.D. was somewhat hostile towards the Ath. Dept. Why that was, I don't know the full story. They self-reported the most minor of instances long before the NCAA could ever get wind of anything, and probably things that the NCAA would never have found out about. They self-imposed scholarship limitations and other penalties, such that when the NCAA did make it around to coming to investigate a couple of instances, all they could do was issue a "Yeah, what they said" sticker, pointing to the compliance department. Granted, the NCAA looked favorably on schools who admitted wrongdoing and didn't lie about it. But Compliance was way up LSU sports' rectum in those days. The differences in how LSU's C.D. were reported to operate and how places like, Auburn, for example, operated, are night and day.

But there were only a couple of minor infractions to begin with, in those days. Prior to that, LSU had gone the longest of any SEC school not named Vanderbilt without any sneaky activity. And they came after LSU was already well into it's decade of great success.

There's just no evidence and not even any smoke around all those players that came in during those days. Most of them were from Louisiana, LSU was a big draw for Louisiana kids, and Saban and Miles and their staffs were great recruiters.

I've heard that's not as much the case anymore. Meaning, I don't know what might be going on there or not, but the Compliance Department is not hostile any longer, digging around trying to get the programs in trouble. Probably lots of turnover in a place like that, with different state politicians removing and appointing their own people, who in turn probably hire in and move out the people they want/don't want, respectively.

Great writeup, and I'm sure there was a definite movement by the CD to keep things in check. Let's just say that A&M has had some experience in that regard. Not sure if the CD was at odds with the AD, but I kinda think they were much stricter in the late 90's and early to mid-2000's. Not sure if true or not, but we have not had any NCAA trouble since the early 90's.

What I'm really asking is if there was a high-level, strategic paying of the players that the CD would never know about. If you did it right, how could they? Not saying it would be easy, but if you knew enough accounting tricks and other loop holes it could be done. I think the biggest hurdle would be tax returns, but maybe you could take out a few loans billionaire style to show no income or something similar. Enron did it for years with billions of dollars and they were committing fraud, I'm talking about a few athletes making a couple hundred thousand extra dollars over the course of 4 years.

Didn't anybody else find it strange that Pruitt was pretty much caught handing players/recruits literal bags of cash? He was one of Sabans top men. Maybe he knew there was a scheme, but wasn't privy to the details and this was his sloppy way of trying to emulate. It always seemed so stupid to me, amateurish really.

utee94 · « **Reply #1306 on:** **Today** at 10:54:42 AM »

My simple answer to the above is "yes."

Ole Miss and Auburn among the worst offenders though.

Once Saban had his pipeline to the NFL established, it wasn't as necessary. But he also knew that Alabama is a poor school compared to many others around him, and even if he'd never been running a bag game, he knew he couldn't compete with legit over-the-table money like NIL.

jgvol · « **Reply #1307 on:** **Today** at 10:56:36 AM »

Quote from: Gigem on Today at 10:52:00 AM

Great writeup, and I'm sure there was a definite movement by the CD to keep things in check. Let's just say that A&M has had some experience in that regard. Not sure if the CD was at odds with the AD, but I kinda think they were much stricter in the late 90's and early to mid-2000's. Not sure if true or not, but we have not had any NCAA trouble since the early 90's.

What I'm really asking is if there was a high-level, strategic paying of the players that the CD would never know about. If you did it right, how could they? Not saying it would be easy, but if you knew enough accounting tricks and other loop holes it could be done. I think the biggest hurdle would be tax returns, but maybe you could take out a few loans billionaire style to show no income or something similar. Enron did it for years with billions of dollars and they were committing fraud, I'm talking about a few athletes making a couple hundred thousand extra dollars over the course of 4 years.

Didn't anybody else find it strange that Pruitt was pretty much caught handing players/recruits literal bags of cash? He was one of Sabans top men. Maybe he knew there was a scheme, but wasn't privy to the details and this was his sloppy way of trying to emulate. It always seemed so stupid to me, amateurish really.

Pruitt is likely correct. Tennessee wanted him gone, and voila'.

Jeremy Pruitt was fired by the University of Tennessee in 2021 for cause due to alleged NCAA recruiting violations, and as a result, he did not receive his approximately $12.6 million buyout. He is now suing the NCAA for $100 million, alleging the organization and the university conspired to avoid paying his buyout and to scapegoat him for the violations. The NCAA had imposed a six-year "show cause" penalty on Pruitt, which has significantly impacted his ability to get a new coaching job.

Gigem · « **Reply #1308 on:** **Today** at 10:57:00 AM »

Quote from: utee94 on Today at 10:54:42 AM

My simple answer to the above is "yes."

Ole Miss and Auburn among the worst offenders though.

Once Saban had his pipeline to the NFL established, it wasn't as necessary. But he also knew that Alabama is a poor school compared to many others around him, and even if he'd never been running a bag game, he knew he couldn't compete with legit over-the-table money like NIL.

I'm not sure if you're saying Ole Miss was doing it before NIL or whatever this current system is, but if so they must have been really bad at it.

Gigem · « **Reply #1309 on:** **Today** at 11:00:29 AM »

I'm not referring to the literal bag men of yesteryear who handed over bags of cash. I'm really referring to "connectors" who can put big money in athletes hands in a way that the NCAA cannot detect. For example, if a player goes to a bank and takes out a loan for $300,000 and he doesn't have to repay it for say, 5 years, that would be perfectly legal. Very suspicious, yet legal.

jgvol · « **Reply #1310 on:** **Today** at 11:01:20 AM »

Quote from: Gigem on Today at 10:57:00 AM

I'm not sure if you're saying Ole Miss was doing it before NIL or whatever this current system is, but if so they must have been really bad at it.

I wouldn't say that.

The results on the field in Freeze’s five years have been remarkable.

Inheriting a team that won just two games in 2011 and had lost 14 straight Southeastern Conference games, Freeze directed Ole Miss to four bowl appearances in his first four years – the first coach in school history to do that – including wins in the BBVA Compass, Music City and Sugar.

Ole Miss was one of five programs in the country (along with Alabama, Florida State, Michigan State and Ohio State) to make consecutive New Year’s Six bowl appearances in the first two years of the College Football Playoff system.

The Rebels increased their win total in each of Freeze’s first four years, including their first 10-win season since 2003. Ole Miss rose as high as No. 3 in the national polls in both 2014 and 2015 and finished top 10 in the country for the first time since 1969 after the 2016 Sugar Bowl win over Oklahoma State.

The Rebels have been a fixture in the national rankings under Freeze, having been included in the top 25 for a total of 45 weeks over the last five years, including a string of 27 straight weeks in the polls for the first time since 1957-62.

Freeze’s teams have shattered most of the offensive school records and had the nation’s No. 1 scoring defense in 2014. His high-flying tempo offense has helped shine the college football spotlight brightly on quarterbacks Bo Wallace and Chad Kelly and receivers Donte Moncrief, Laquon Treadwell, Evan Engram and others.

utee94 · « **Reply #1311 on:** **Today** at 11:27:13 AM »

^^^^^^

Yup, Ole Miss wasn't that bad at the bag game. They were just competing directly with SEC teams that were even better.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #1312 on:** **Today** at 11:32:12 AM »

Quote from: Gigem on Today at 10:52:00 AM

What I'm really asking is if there was a high-level, strategic paying of the players that the CD would never know about. If you did it right, how could they? Not saying it would be easy, but if you knew enough accounting tricks and other loop holes it could be done. I think the biggest hurdle would be tax returns, but maybe you could take out a few loans billionaire style to show no income or something similar. Enron did it for years with billions of dollars and they were committing fraud, I'm talking about a few athletes making a couple hundred thousand extra dollars over the course of 4 years.

Well, on this view, you're free to speculate about literally everything, because it's not falsifiable. If everything looks clean and one then says "But what if they found a way to avoid known methods of detection and we just don't know about it?" then it doesn't matter how clean a program is, you can just speculate away. I don't find that very compelling, it's what conspiracy theories are built on, but to each their own, I suppose

In Alabama's case, Auburn, a few others, there is evidence of wrongdoing. Maybe not the hard proof necessary, but known facts which are suspicious.

My deal in our case is I don't know of any rocks to kick over with Saban's players from 2000 to 2004. What you're proposing is a trail so smart we can't trace it. Okay, let's say that exists. I find it unlikely that the fruits of such an endeavor wouldn't lead to noticeable things. You're not gonna give a bunch of $ to a college kid and they don't spend it on something someone would know about and see as a red flag. They're not just gonna sit on it for 4 years. There was a QB in the Miles era who people made a big deal about his dozens of high-dollar Nike shoes. Like, he had a whole closet full of them. It was investigated, nothing came of it, and his parents had money, he didn't come to LSU poor. Who knows what happened there, but it's plausible his parents bought him a lot of shoes over the years, particularly in light of the fact no improper goings-on were discovered. There was another instance of the WR coach getting a D-lineman a discount on an apartment he was living in. It wasn't a flashy apartment, it was just improper. The Compliance Department caught it, because they were actively digging into that kind of stuff constantly. The coach was fired, the player dismissed, and LSU self-sanctioned.

I've always heard Orgeron was linked to bag men and under-the-table dealings with recruiting players. That made me nervous back when Les brought him on the 2016 staff. It wouldn't surprise me to learn one day that things were shady under him as HC. Particularly if Compliance wasn't actively out to hammer the team any longer. But.....I don't know of any evidence regarding improper benefits to any of those players--I don't even know of any accusations--and I don't think the possibility warrants my suspicion without anything substantive to base it on.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #1313 on:** **Today** at 11:55:51 AM »

We really don't know.

Gigem · « **Reply #1314 on:** **Today** at 01:27:56 PM »

Yeah I'm not going to dwell on it too much, because like you said now we're merely speculating. I do know that Fisher, in the rant he had about Saban after Saban accused A&M of buying our roster (we did, legally, it didn't work out), was sort of close about letting the cat out of the bag.

All I will say is that for a long, long time Alabama and there 3 deep were better than 98% of the rest of CFP, and it always seemed strange that no matter how many new players came and went, and coaches they seemed to be on top.

utee94 · « **Reply #1315 on:** **Today** at 01:47:53 PM »

Whether or not anyone knows, or believes, that Saban was playing the bag game, really isn't relevant to the remark I made about him quitting.

My point in saying that, wasn't that he was accustomed to a past where his boosters paying players gave them a leg up, although that's certainly a possibility.

It was more about the future scenario where legitimately paying rosters dozens of millions of dollars per year was about to become a reality, and he knew that Alabama could no longer be dominant in a market like that.

And there's also the new facet of roster management that involves re-recruiting every player on your own team on an annual basis, or at least the ones you really care about. I don't think he wanted to engage in that kind of business, I'm guessing he'd find it to be extremely irritating, and so he left before the new reality really began to take hold.

The SEC Forum at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.

Topic: SEC Front Porch

MikeDeTiger

Re: SEC Front Porch

jgvol

Re: SEC Front Porch

Cincydawg

Re: SEC Front Porch

Gigem

Re: SEC Front Porch

utee94

Re: SEC Front Porch

jgvol

Re: SEC Front Porch

Gigem

Re: SEC Front Porch

Gigem

Re: SEC Front Porch

jgvol

Re: SEC Front Porch

utee94

Re: SEC Front Porch

MikeDeTiger

Re: SEC Front Porch

Cincydawg

Re: SEC Front Porch

Gigem

Re: SEC Front Porch

utee94

Re: SEC Front Porch